Sound Familiar?

by peacefulpete 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anna Marina
    Anna Marina

    Regarding money/economy - shortly before the virus and US election there were issues with the price of oil.

    I am only doing this from memory so this is as best as I can remember.

    An expert on oil prices who could tell a lot from a chart had gone off to tell those in the Middle East that their oil prices would drop. He admitted he got it wrong because he had no idea HOW LOW those prices were going to drop. When the price of oil got so low, they were paying people to take it away he said that was a key moment in history, as big as when oil itself was discovered.

    He said the future would be like an economic heart attack - prices wildly up and wildly down for no reason. He said this is like the death of an economy.

    Economy is to do with household management. And households have values and priorities. God Himself has a household.

    (Ephesians 2:19) . . .Certainly, therefore, you are no longer strangers and alien residents, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God,

  • minimus
    minimus

    I was responding to the idea that people get worked up over who is in somebody’s camp. If they don’t see you 100% aligned to their views they expel you. Just accept everyone has a viewpoint

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @min:

    Yeah, the thread progressed into a more general discussion about the political divide.

    I’ve got family members, and friends that love Biden. I don’t cut them off. I don’t agree with them, and I tell them that. But I don’t cut them off.

  • Anna Marina
    Anna Marina

    I see some are saying some lovely prayers for them.

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape

    (Between work and my phone dumping my comments before l get them posted—argh! —Try again)

    Right— money is a tool humans invented for trade. First coins possessed value according to the kind of metal and it’s weight. Very handy tool. Say I want my nrighbor’s donkey so l offer him to swap fir one of my hogs. He has a hog already. So I sell my hog to a local market for some coins and buy my neighbor’s donkey. Wonderful invention. But the power of money quickly outgrew such mundane use.

    No point in going into the history of money. But I want it understood that I agree that money isn’t evil in itself.

    What is very like evil comes into play is when vast sums of wealth are held by only a few humans.

    Increasingly we are not able to access the means to support ourselves through direct efforts i.e. on pawpaw’s back forty building a cabin, digging a well. and gardening. So we work for money to buy our living indirectly.

    That is modern life. And many people have found it possible to flourish in the use of money by reinvesting their hard won surpluses into interprises that generate more money. If they do this frequently and successfully they will become wealthy . And one of the good things about this model of gaining more wealth and investing it is the likelihood that others will think of cool ideas and products to sell for money. And things go on getting better for everyone. Not bad. Certainly not evil.

    But enter the nature change when a wealthy person becomes a disembodied Corporation. Then comes hazard .

    _____________________________________________

    In 1898 Warren Bechtel from Peabody Kansas went into business with two mules and a wagon. Eight years later he bought a steam shovel and painted the words “W. Bechtel Inc.” on one side ((though he wasn’t incorporated for another 8 years) Five generations later Bechtel Corporation is the largest construction firm in the U.S. I like that story of a salt-of-the-earth type guy getting ahead like that.

    But twenty years ago Bechtel Corp was involved in the kind abuse of power— legally—that can only occur when the basic structures of human commerce, finance , politics and human interactions are so out of balance as they now are.

    When Bechtel Corporation and a few other parties took on the private management of water in Cochabamba, Bolivia the city’s poor (who subsisted on @ $100 a month) were informed that water would cost them $20 a month. So they return to using rainwater from cisterns instead . The Newly incorporated water authority told them they were in violation of the law.

    You can find out what happened by googling “ The Cochabamba Water War”

    I like to think that Warren Bechtel in his mule days would never have done that. But a hundred years later his good human heart didn’t thump in Bechtel’s Corporation even if his blood flows in the veins of its CEO. The corporate nature/structure can’t allow it.

    The scale of big money is literally heartbreaking.

    ( sorry for typos- I gotta post this now)

    edit:thedivision there and here and everywhere has to do with thorny matters rising from social inequities and how they become interpreted and politicized . Without compassionate listening to all the parties those in comfortable circumstances will feel threatened,feel demonized by the working poor.

    The middle class will feel resentful in their own struggles.

    And the poor — well, are they always with us? Never a serious voting block and easy to ignore—until you take even the rainwater away from them.

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape

    I’ll just put this out there. Short and concise : the divide is foundational. It’s fundamental. We have grave differences on how to organize society. It has little to do with religion, nothing to do with Trump. It has nothing to do with racism, although you wouldn’t know that listening to the news.

    It’s the foundation principles that have defined western civilization, the ones that make capitalism even remotely possible. We are at that level.

    There isn’t a middle ground as far as I can see.—-MMM


    MMM, you say we have grave differences about how to organize society. And you seem to suggest that there are destructive threats rising from these differences. Threats to the very the western principles upon which we have built our lives and our economic ( capitalistic) system.

    If we accept this assessment the problem then a question comes to mind: When the Constitution was framed on Western values did it really provide a sound framework for social order? Or did it create a time bomb by failing to recognize the equal value of all citizen to have a share of, a voice in society.

    The answer is historical: Native Americans, women, white men without property, and chattel slaves were bound to a social order that legally excluded them from enjoying the fruits of Western Values.

    So while there is every reason to love the “new nation conceived in liberty” the Founding Fathers limited who they wanted to share those freedoms: Native Americans, women, white men without property, and chattel slaves were bound to a social order that legally excluded them from enjoying the fruits of Western Values.

    *******************************************************

    Pertinent to the birth of our nation- I think River Gang’s observation on the ways in which a marriage might fail speaks to this matter.

    I regret to have to say the I have been through a divorce.

    No single event caused that, just several decades worth of resentment which accumulated finally to explosion point.

    (Back then, I had never even heard of “conflict management”)

    Also RG wrote:

    As in many things, timing is all important in conflict management. If allowed to fester for too long without being effectively managed, then the consequences are likely to be drastic (eg. War)


  • hybridous
    hybridous

    Who says all citizens have equal value? You talk about it as if it were a foregone conclusion, but how would one prove it?

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape


    You are right , hybridus. We citizens assumed this even though in fact in our past there have been classes of people who were not treated with equal value. Nevertheless our own Declaration of Independence has led many Americans to make the assumption that we do have equal value and even possess unalienable Rights.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape

    ...but how would one prove it?—hybridous

    Actually l didn’t touch that part of your post.

    It made me wonder..Of course our nation with such high sounding principles made laws inconsistent and hypocritical with the above words from the Declaration of Independence. That way the *true*citizens could secure slave labor and defraud native peoples of their indigenous lands.

    Not even Africans born in the States and FREE were allowed citizenship until after the Civil War. It took the 14 th Amendment of 1868 to fix that.

    Eventually the American Civil Liberties Union was set up to test that assumption of equal value or equal protection under the law -thus the Constitution became the means of as you said proving each ones equal value.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @SWTTE:

    There is a lot to say about your second post. It will take more time than I have right now. So, I thought I would respond to your post about the Cochabamba, Bolivia water company.

    First, I didn't do a dive deep into the background information of "The Cochabamba Water War". However, I glanced at some information. If the purpose of the example is to illustrate the failures of private enterprise, it really, at least to me, affirmed quite the opposite. In fact, the more I read about this mess, the more it becomes clear to me that it is a great example of why the government should be small, with as little to do with the lives of the citizens as possible.

    The backdrop of the problem was that the government had printed its currency into oblivion. We have massive government spending, monetized by money printing, effectively a tax, by extracting not really a quantity of money, but the value from it. At this point, the government has squandered the wealth of the nation, leaving everyone poor.

    This is, first, part of the type of mindset that causes the divide. This idea that we need the government to engage in attempts to equalize resources often leads to poverty and starvation, or at least greater inequity, and in the process of attempting to force the outcome that seems "just", it undermines the very principles that would create a way out - like private property rights.

    So, with the country in a fiscal mess, they turned to private companies to pick up the slack and start a recovery. Now, IMHO, this was a great idea. But they messed it up again, by bringing government control back into the picture, thereby causing yet another problem greater than the one before. True privatization here would be the government backing away completely. Force NO price controls. Allow any, and all, private resources to invest *if* they want. There were a bunch of firms that said "no". In the end, to get private money involved, certain promises had to be made. They granted a monopoly (again, governments like to do this for some reason), required licenses by law (this was the potential prohibition of collecting rainwater), and tried to guarantee a profit for the investors.

    Basically, the government ran out of money. But they wanted to keep spending because it was part of their philosophy. They believed in big government spending. The population did too. So, as far as I can tell, if the Wiki article is correct, they promised profits to an private investment, expanded the demands, included "pork" (that is, required more and more of the private firms - electrical work, a new dam, and surprise! some extra stuff for a local politician), and then got quite angry when the price had to be raised. The Wiki article claimed that the $20/month charge came from people inexperienced in marketing. I don't buy it. I think the price had to be raised from the obvious costs involved - and probably combined with a mindset that they were guaranteed a certain profit, and they had a monopoly, so very little consequence (from the market) to restrain price increases.

    From what I could tell, the people didn't really learn their lesson either - as is often the case.

    BUT - back to the topic - I think this has a lot to do with the divide. A fundamental philosophy that government's role is to step in and create "equity", not equality. Step into the breach and right the wrongs of history, for justice.

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