Heaven

by ClassAvenger 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

Again, may you have peace... and as long as you are willing to continue the discussion, I am willing to make a response, just as my Lord grants me. To wit, you start:
You state "I apologize, but a gain, you err. God chose King Saul." But this is not a case of salvation is it? He needed Saul to do a specific job.
And yet, in both cases, how is such choosing DONE? Is it not by an anointing? In the case of Saul, a fleshly king in earthly Jerusalem, with holy spirit which was evidenced by literal olive oil being poured out on him by the prophet Samuel... and in the case of those who are to become spiritual kings AND priests in "heavenly" Jerusalem, with holy spirit... the oil of exultation itself... holy spirit... by means of the greatest prophet, our Lord?
1 Samuel 10:1; John 1:33
The Bible in many areas shows how God uses individuals for certain tasks.
Yes. And aren't such "kings and priests" to be USED... for a certain task?
You mention Saul as a example of God "un-choosing" a person. But you have to look at why, he chose.
He chose Saul because the people demanded a king. He UNchose Saul... because of the change in Saul's heart. He removed His (God's) spirit... and gave Saul a "bad" spirit. Yes.
As I stated there are many examples of God spirit coming upon a person temporarely so that God can use them for great acts. This happend alot to Israel in Judges 3:8-10 This was not always permenant, sometimes a temporary manifestation of the HolySpirit. The Spirit even came upon non-believers to do unusual tasks.In Numbers 24:2 Gods Spirit used Balaam. (He was a sorcerer). And Pharaoh.
You make a WONDERFUL point, that I am not sure even YOU get: that all things done BEFORE the outpouring of holy spirit was with regard to the flesh, which is temporary: the Law Covenant, the miracles, God's use of individuals. However, since the out pouring of holy spirit, such things are for a PERMANENT purpose. However, even that permanence can be changed. Thus, the words at Hebrews 10:26-31:
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer an sacrifice for sins left... Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much greater punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ORDINARY value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"
So... this says that even after one has been sanctified, cleansed by the blood of Christ, one can CHOOSE to sin. Is that with regard to disobedience to the Law Covenant? No, for that "law" was fulfilled, so that it could be removed and replaced with ANOTHER law, the law of the love. If then, one hates one's brother, one's neighbor, one's enemies... one is not "proving" themselves a son of God, but rather, one is "proving" himself a son of the Devil. John 5:43-48; 1 John 3:9-12 But this is if one CHOOSES to do so. Like Judas. It is not the sin of the flesh... but rather, the sin... of the SPIRIT. From the HEART. It is not sin that says, "Forgive me, I cannot help it, I am weak in this regard." Luke 8:13, 14 Rather, it is sin that says, "I KNOW there is a God, and I KNOW His spirit is good, but I CHOOSE the "bad" spirit." Saul became like this and Judas was one of these: he knew our Lord was God's son... yet, he CHOSE to put in his lot with Satan's agents... and have our Lord put to death. And Paul spoke of others.
They are not people who succumb to weakness of the flesh... for we will all succumb to something. Sooner or later. It is our nature. However, it is those who succumb to the weakness of their HEART... those who have NO INTEGRITY... so that if offered enough... they will sell even their soul to the Devil... for the sake of their skin. That is what the Adversary's "temptation" of our Lord was all about - that is why he approached our Lord when he was WEAK... not when he was strong.
And if you notice, with the exception of food, none of the "temptations" had to do with the flesh... but with the heart: put God to the test, have all of these kingdoms... rulership and power *I* will give you... if you serve ME. Our Lord was not worried either about his flesh... nor did he give out in his SPIRIT.

In 2Chronicles 36:23 The LORD moved the heart of King Cyrus. The point, Gods Holy Spirit gave the person power to what God needed them to do, but not always did it produce the fruits of the spirit.
I beg to differ with you: did not Cyrus' works result in PEACE for Israel? Was it not an evidence of FAITH on Cyrus' part to even go forth with the restoration? Did not the people resound in JOY? Was it not a KIND act of his on their behalf? Was it not GOOD? Did he not do it because he LOVED God... and therefore His people? Does it not evidence a MILDNESS on the part of Cyrus, that he, a ruler, even allowed such a thing, rather than wanting Israel to worship HIM, like other kings? Was he not LONG-SUFFERING with Artexerxes and did he not exercise SELF-CONTROL against those who wished to halt the rebuilding and attempted not only to discourage Judah, but to sway Artexerxes?
As in Sauls case in his early years he was a different person, as the result of the Holy spirits work in him. But as his power grew so did his pride. And in 1Sam 16:14 The spirit left him,
EXACTLY! Was it his flesh that changed? Or was it his HEART? David sinned with his FLESH first, and later with his HEART. For which was he disciplined? Nathan was not sent to him when he had relations with Bathsheba... nor when she became pregnant. It was only after David began to contrive against Uzziah and finally had him killed that Nathan was sent. AND... because he saw his own error and CHANGED HIS HEART... God's did not cast him off. True, he "reaped" a bad reward from his other household, but he was allowed another son by Bathsheba... and THAT son was "chosen" to build the temple. And David certainly WAS chosen by holy spirit... to be "God's throne"... to "time indefinite".
Saul never committed the types of errors that David did; however, the DIFFERENCE between David and Saul... was the heart.
v.23 then you have the spirit coming back whenever David would play the harp.
I am not sure how you are applying this with regard to Saul. But God's spirit "chose" David BEFORE he began playing the harp. And God's spirit was with David even when he WASN'T playing the harp.
Forgive me, for scripture disagrees with your example of God choosing and unchoosing.
And I must humby disagree.
Look at the example of Jonah. I wont give you scripture.
I am not sure how this example applies, other than although Jonah didn't want to BE chosen, God neverthe less chose him. Do you know why? To teach US the lesson... of mercy... and how we SAY we want to "serve God", but when to comes to doing a difficult assignment, we will also say, "Yes, I'll do ANYTHING... but that..." and try to run from it. However, if it is God's will, we will still be called upon to do the task... for our OWN benefit. What was the benefit to Jonah? To show him his own HEART: Jonah did not know mercy... and had to be taught by the example of his own heart. We, too, our taught this way and the question is when we are, do we HEAR... or do we "harden" our hearts even further?
For you quote our Lord; "If ANYONE (and not just some group named by some group from among earthling man) eats of this bread, he WILL live forever..."
Indeed. Jew or Greek. Slave or freeman. Rich or poor. Anyone.

You missed my point, but since you brought up this point, will take it from v60. of John 6 - Here the disciples were grumbling saying " this is a hard teaching who can understand this" ( speaking of eating bread to live for ever). Then Jesus clearifys v63. "the spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing, (this would include the heart). wont you agree.
No, I must say that I would NOT agree. For it this is the case, everyone whose fleshly heart has been transplanted... will not receive life. For by means of your words, it is the fleshly heart... the organ of tissue... that is meant. However, it is not. It is the heart of a man that only GOD (and thus, Christ) can "see". It is one's thoughts and intentions... one's motives and purposes. It is the "heart" that drives a man.
If the flesh that counts for nothing also includes the heart that I speak of... then one could open another's chest, then open that one's heart... and see... "the things that come out of a man." But such things are not seen by eyes of flesh... for it is not the heart of FLESH that I speak of. In the instance YOU gave, the heart (of flesh) IS of no use at all. That's why when it gives out... it can be replaced... and yet, you are still the same "man" inside... you are still "Ellderwho"... and not the individual whose heart you now possess.
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).
Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart". Such "new heart" is "made"... by holy spirit. Such spirit is the "regenerative life force" of God... that... by means of Christ... CLEANSES a man's SPIRIT... renews his HEART... and makes him a "new personality."
By means of the FRUITS of the spirit (i.e., love, joy, peace, etc.)... the former things of the heart (i.e., hatred, hypocrisy, hard heartedness, etc.) can be CHANGED. But one must first see the NEED for such change... and ASK for such spirit... so as to RECEIVE it. And not just ask because it is the spirit of God and one wants to "possess" something "special" - rather, ASK... because one WANTS such spirit to become MANIFEST... in them! They want to "put on the Christ", "clothe oneself" with love... with Christ... with God... for God IS love.
I bid you, read Psalm 51:10, 11 - for it is most probably the "prayer" that Cornelius prayed... and was heard... and answered.
Acts 10:4, 15, 19-44
I gave you an example of what ears that hear and you turned it around;You state: "So, most assuredly, they heard the WORDS our Lord uttered, did they not? But… you are making the same error as many others when you assume that our Lord is speaking of the hearing with the FLESH." You say" you assume"
I find this interesting, as you SEEM to be trying to make an argument for the spirit over the flesh, which argument I absolutely agree with. However, as in this case you keep giving me an examples that relate to the FLESH, versus the spirit. For example, you spoke of ears of FLESH that hear... and I gave you ears of SPIRIT. Yet, you still dispute...
You then chop off the point I was trying to make;
I TRULY beg your pardon... that was not my intention at all! My sincerest apologies!
I said: " the reason you cannot hear is that you do not belong to God."
And I would disagree... and I would agree. I would DISAGREE, if you are speaking with reference to me. I would AGREE that the reason they did not hear is that they do not belong to God. However, that they did not belong to God was EVIDENCED. How? I will quote Paul (?): "For who among men knows the things OF a man, except the SPIRIT of man that is IN him? So, too, no one has come to know the things OF GOD, except the SPIRIT of God. Now, WE... received... NOT the spirit of the WORLD... but the spirit that is FROM GOD, that we might KNOW... the things that have been kindly GIVEN US... BY GOD. THESE things we ALSO SPEAK... NOT with words taught by HUMAN wisdom, but with those taught BY SPIRIT, as we combine SPIRITUAL... with SPIRITUAL. "BUT... a PHYSICAL man does NOT receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; and... he CANNOT GET TO KNOW THEM... because THEY ARE EXAMINED SPIRITUALLY. However, the SPIRITUAL man examines indeed ALL things... but he himself is NOT examined by any MAN. For "WHO has come to know the mind of JAH that he may instruct Him? But... we DO have the mind... of CHRIST." 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 (and sorry, I can't seem to turn off the "red"!)
Why would I make that refrence to scpiture if, as you say" I am making the same mistake as others "?
Because they make that same mistake, too. Perhaps you are also among those who think the "scriptures" can't be misinterpreted, mistranslated or mistransliterated, misused, or misapplied? If so, you are in error, for I give you... "religion." It does it all the time.
Then you agree with me: " Absolutely! And how is it “evidenced” that one “belongs” to God? Isn’t one “chosen”…
Where you are correct, yes, certainly! However, where you are not, I am sorry, but I cannot.
Forgive me, you seem to want to read pass the points that I give. " Aguest,which REFUSED to hear." Again, its not that the Pharisees "refused" to hear, they could not hear.
Ah, yes... now I "see" your point. But you miss mine: they could not hear because they refused to hear. Their hearts... had grown unreceptive... and they did not ask to have a new heart created in them. Had they WANTED to hear, truly, then they would have been given ears. All one needs do is ASK... and it WILL be "opened" to them. These, however, they could not hear because they did not have ears TO hear. It was not "opened" to them because they didn't WANT it to be. They loved themselves and what they had... and to HEAR... would have been a threat to that. They did not have such ears... because they did not WANT them.
The flesh is nothing, including the heart, if you dont have the spirit of truth, first.
And I disagree - the spirit of God cannot reside in an unclean 'vessel'. Therefore, as my Lord said, "Cleanse the INSIDE of the cup FIRST." In that way... an "abode" is prepared so that the Spirit of God can come and dwell therein. True, the "cup" does not have to be COMPLETELY cleansed; only a minute spot is needed, just enough for a "seed" to be planted. But once planted, it will grow. God... "will FINISH your training." John 14:23; Romans 8:9, 10
What good then, would a loving, honest, caring heart be, without the spirit of truth?
It would be extremely limited... and at risk to returning to its former state. Why? Because it can be "divided", separated from God. However, to say that such do not exist, would be untrue. The very statement that "for the HEARERS of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the DOERS of law will be declared righteous," bears witness to that. The Samaritan man did not adhere to the Law, but the Jews did. He did not worship at the temple and offer up sacrifices, etc., and they did. Yet, it was the Samaritan man who proved himself "more righteous." So, those Pharisees didn't HEAR. But even some of those who HEARD... did not DO. If, then, I chance to meet someone who IS kind, loving, honest, and caring, and yet, they did not know of my God and my Lord... do I constitute them an "enemy"? I would not. Why? Because although such one might be "without law"... their love, honesty, kindness and caring would show ME that they have the law "written on their heart." And such one would be constituted a "sheep"... one who, although not a "brother" of Christ, does good TO Christ by doing good to his "brothers".
Their are plenty of people in the world with good hearts. And these same individuals do not have the LORD as lord of their life. This is fact.
I absolutely agree.
You state: We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability.. Why I ask you, do you still continue to contradict scripture, with words like "we" and" best of our ability" ??
Because what I say to you is true. If you ASK for God and Christ to come into your heart, but your heart is not RECEPTIVE to such dwelling... then what? And since we ARE flesh with its blood... we are limited in what WE can do to make this occur, yes? But... we must at least ASK and be RECEPTIVE, yes?

When later in you post you agree we can do nothing on our own
Thus it is not by our FLESH
Aguest: it is by our SPIRIT that we prove it.
I am not sure you are properly applying what I have written here. It is true that we cannot GIVE ourselves such spirit; but we can most certainly ASK for it... and as a result RECEIVE it.
Luke 11:13
No, it is by the Holy Spirit that it is revealed.
Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes?
Again you state: "be upon YOU… if you so wish it. Indeed, if YOU are thirsting and YOU are hearing and YOU are wishing, then may you, too, hear what the spirit and bride KEEP ON saying:"
Why do you use language like " if you so wish it"?
Because, IF your heart is "upright" and you truly ARE wishing for it, then it is within my power to grant it to you. For it has been given me, FREE, and I am to give it, FREE, to anyone who asks for it, out of pure heart. God granted it to Christ; Christ grants it to those who "belong" to him; and "we" are not to keep it to ourselves, but share it, freely, with those who are thirsting, hearing and wishing. To those who are "deserving"... by means of them being sent to us... or we... to them.
John 20:23; Acts 9:17; 10:19-23; 19:6
Dearest Aguest, I have to rebuke you with scripture, I have already given you scripture that contradicts your points.
And I humbly accept your rebuke, although I must say to you that it is given in error, based on your own "understanding," and not that given you by Christ. For he has not directed you to "rebuke" me, nor authorized you. But, since you are my brother, yet acquainted with the "elementary" things, I will take your rebuke.
These are not my positions they are the Bibles.
Unfortunately, dear Ellderwho... the Bible... has no "authority" over me. I listen to the One who speaks from the heavens... to HIS voice... and it is his "authority" only that I recognize. I exhort you, to read John 5:39, 40 and hear... and get the SENSE of it... so that you, too, will know such "authority".
Confidence in the scriptures will allow you to see how humble we really are.
Confidence in the scriptures... will put you back under Law, Law that we have been released from by means of the blood of Christ. Confidence in the CHRIST, however... and in the holy spirit which that One pours out... will help YOU see. It will put you in place to receive "eyesalve"... so as to truly see by the Light of God, Christ.
What you follow... is the word written on paper in delible ink. The One whom I follow is the Word of God; that One is ALIVE... and exerts power. He is not sitting around "waiting", but is ACTIVE... ruling as king and SUBDUING those who belong to him... by means of LOVE... in the midst of his enemies. You are awaiting his "activity" in your life... at the time that he "returns". He is doing his "works" in MY life, now. For he resides IN me, just as God, through holy spirit, reside in me. He in union with God, God in union with him... and I... in union with them. John 17:21-23; 6:56; 15;1-7
Even your "scriptures"... say it is so. However, I did not "hear" it by means of scriptures, but from my Lord. By means of HIS voice.
We deserve Gods wrath period.
I did. At one time. When I walked in the UNPROFITABLENESS of my heart. But now that God and Christ dwell IN me... and I am in union with them... I have no condemnation. So long as I CONTINUE in union with them. For apart from them, I can do nothing at all. I live by means of them... and will continue to live.
Romans 8:1; John 15:1-7; John 10:1-3; 27
Your "scriptures"... say it is so. However, I did not "hear" it by means of scriptures, but from my Lord. By means of HIS voice. I only QUOTE "scripture" and verses... for those who NEED them: they need to see it "written"... with their eyes of FLESH... rather than hear it directly from the voice of my Lord... and put FAITH in "the thing heard."
People do not like to hear that.
I have no problem with it. I know what I "deserve". However, what I "deserve" has been "blotted out"... by means of God's UNDESERVED kindness: mercy. Rather than exist in fear and trembling, then, I live under that mercy. I KNOW God's love... and that the only way He will remove such mercy is if I WISH Him to, by means of a change in MY heart.
It really comes down to this point " How far into sin did Adam fall? What is the bottom line? Did he fall a little, to where he can help himself up, or did he fall so helplessly into the pit of sin, there was nothing he could do for himself.
I absolutely agree that Adam farther than being able to help himself. However, I also know that there is a RANSOM... which has been PAID. And all one needs do is want to BE saved... have faith that they CAN be saved... and DEMONSTRATE that faith... by eating from the Tree of Life AND following the commandments to love God, love our neighbor and love our enemies... and that ransom can be applied.
For, if you agree with the latter, you will see how hopeless we really are no matter how much "spiritual food" is put in front of someone who does not have the "spirit" to eat, they will continue to be DEAD in their state and will die in their sin.
But I did not disagree with you here, except that to say the "spirit" to eat must start with THEIR spirit, to make way for GOD's spirit... to "finish" the work.
No matter what you think the condition of the heart is.
Again, I direct you to Psalm 51:10, 11 and say to you that indeed it is God's spirit that makes the new heart, but it is one's desire FOR God's spirit... to DO so... that starts the process.

As you state:
May you, too, say, “Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH…” and give ALL praise and honor and glory to that One and to the One who sent him forth.
Amen... and amen. And may you hear the spirit... AND the bride. For it KEEPS saying, even unto you:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... free!"
YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
ellderwho

Aguest,
You concur until this statement is made
You make a WONDERFUL point, that I am not sure even YOU get
Why would you agree on something I said, when your not sure if I understand what im saying.
I must sound pretty convincing.
But this is if one CHOOSES to do so. Like Judas.
If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
Look at what you said:
Judas was one of these: he knew our Lord was God's son... yet, he CHOSE to put in his lot with Satan's agents
Your theology doesnt make sense.
The point I was making about King Cyrus was again misapplied.
The example given was to include but not limited to Gods spirit to urge people to act out things that God wanted done. And yes some of the results were signs of the fruitage of the spirit.but not always.
Not in the case of the Donkey used by the Lord spirit.
Aguest:I beg to differ with you.
About what then?
You state;I am not sure how this example applies, other than although Jonah didn't want to BE chosen, God
My point missed again, Was Jonah able to choose? NO
You state:for it is not the heart of FLESH that I speak of. In the instance YOU gave, the heart (of flesh) IS of no use at all
Again, John 6:63 Jesus clearly states: the flesh counts for nothing, notta
Why you still hold on to the thought that there is a little bit, inside of a man, a little hope, a slight, slim chance theres a flicker of good intention in mans heart, to draw himself to realize he needs God.
When I said:(this would include the heart).
I was simply paraphasing what Jesus words meant. In John 6:63 And it still stands, their is nothing in the heart of man. He is at emnity with God
I wrote:
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).
You wrote: Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart". Such "new heart" is "made"... by holy spirit Your putting the horse before the cart By that statement your really saying a person gets the spirit of God when they ask.(horse/cart theory) Unless you've known people of the world that can accept the spirit of truth. The same here you state:
they could not hear because they refused to hear. Their hearts... had grown unreceptive... and they did not ask to have a new heart created in
again here:
Had they WANTED to hear,
They could not hear a thing if their life depended on it (literally)! You still hold that they could have heard but that they refused to hear his words. If thats the case why then did Jesus ask the question "why dont you understand my words Jesus knew they heard him, this had nothing to do with their hearts, because of the fact the father had not abled them as Jesus states in John 6:65 If that is not the reason, then why does Jesus in 6:45 say to the Jews while reffering to the bread that comes from heaven, He states "stop grumbling among yourselves No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him... v45 "as it is written in the prophets: they will all be taught by God' Your theology-- you are doing something without the father, because you've stated in the past;
And all one needs do is want to BE saved

We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability..
Im really trying to understand your theology but it just doesnt make sense, Ive stated:
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).
You state:
Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart
Your disput is with scripture not I.
You state: the Bible... has no "authority" over me.
Why you feel this way is puzzling? 2Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is God breathed is this the part that has no "authority" you state "Confidence in the scriptures... will put you back under Law,
What you follow... is the word written on paper in delible ink
No, what I follow is God breathed
Even your "scriptures"..
"All scripture is God breathed" 2Tim 3:16 You state:
but it is one's desire FOR God's spirit... to DO so... that starts the process.
Your doing this on your own again. Scripture clearly states " No comes to the son unless the father draw him" You quote Ps.51 Because we are born as sinners (51:5) our natural desire is to please ourselves rather than God v.11 David has the "spirit" and still wants a pure heart. The same for me for I know my heart is wicked. But How did Paul view this: Ro.7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.19 For what I do is not the good I want to do ; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing, You see there is no good in us. period. In Christ ellderwho
ellderwho

Dearest Aguest,
You state:
Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes
Please, understand the background of the way Gods Holy spirt worked, and who knew of it.
These Ephesian "believers" needed further instruction on the message and ministry of Jesus Christ.Paul had never stayed in Ephesus, and had no ministry there.
Apollos had already been through there. But remember Apollos did not know about the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ until Aquilla and Priscilla had talked with him. All he(Apollos) had been preaching was the baptism of John. As a result of this, the people who had heard his preaching had been instructed only of the baptism of John and had not yet heard of the Holy Spirit.
"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" is a poor translation. Both verbs receive and believe, are in the same tense. The American Standard Version translates the verse more accurately: " Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?" Paul is asking them, "when you believed did you receive the Holy Spirit?" Their response was that they had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit.
They were instructed up to the baptism of John. They had not been taught about the Lord Jesus and didnt know anything about Pentecost.
They were baptized but were not saved.
You state: And then, as a RESULT of such faith
I ask you what did they have faith in,(repentance)? and what actually were they believing in?
You state:they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it?
By your statement you are supposing they wished for something that they didnt even know existed.
As you state of my of my acquintance with "elementary" things,
I am simply giving you a "elementry" view of the scripture you trying to make a point from.
IN Christ
ellderwho
noko

ellderwho,
Apollos had already been through there. But remember Apollos did not know about the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ until Aquilla and Priscilla had talked with him. All he(Apollos) had been preaching was the baptism of John. As a result of this, the people who had heard his preaching had been instructed only of the baptism of John and had not yet heard of the Holy Spirit.
Was not scripture fulfilled in Jesus? If so then why wouldn't faithful people to the Word Of God not know of the Holy Spirit. In addition didn't John the Baptist prepare the way of our Lord? Didn't he speak of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Jesus was expected by faithful people when he arrived I dear say. Just some observations, more later.
ellderwho

Noko,
In Acts 18:24 " And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
v25 "'This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John."
v26 " And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue; whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard , they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly"
v27 " And when he was disposed to pass into Achia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace."
v28 " For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."
You state:
Didn't he speak of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I looked in John and read chapter 3:25-30
"and they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him"
The disciples of John, I would assume are jealous.
John answers, A man can received nothing, except it be given him from heaven.Ye yourselves bear me witness , that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Noko:Jesus was expected by faithful people when he arrived
John 1:10,11 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11.'He came to his own and his own received him not."
ellderwho
AGuest

again, may you have peace... and thank you for your kind patience in continuing this discussion. May JAH bless!
Aguest, you concur until this statement is made: “You make a WONDERFUL point, that I am not sure even YOU get…”
Why would you agree on something I said, when your not sure if I understand what I’m saying.
I can agree with WHAT you said; whether YOU understand WHAT you said is another thing. I can give the WTBTS and its teachings, versus its understandings, as an example.
I must sound pretty convincing.
Why, because you said something that is true? The WTBTS says that Christ at God’s right hand, starting in 33CE. This is true (well, the sitting part; the date is an error). However, they took that “sitting” to mean that he was JUST sitting there… waiting… until 1914… that he does NOT sit when he rules. However, the FACT is that he SAT… AND BEGAN RULING… at the same time. Ruling FROM the position at God’s right hand. So, they said something accurate; however, they did not UNDERSTAND what the TRUTH of that was.
SJ wrote: But this is if one CHOOSES to do so. Like Judas.
Ellderwho wrote: If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
So, you believe that one can be chosen, but one cannot choose to blaspheme that choosing. Yes? I must disagree.
Look at what you said: Judas was one of these: he knew our Lord was God's son... yet, he CHOSE to put in his lot with Satan's agents Your theology doesnt make sense.
I disagree: the choice starts... with us:
“Now when they heard this (Peter speaking) they were stabbed TO THE HEART and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: ‘Men, brothers, WHAT SHALL WE DO?’ Peter said to them, “Repent… and you WILL receive the free gift of the holy spirit.”
Acts 2:37, 38
These made a CHOICE… just as those who heard my Lord speak did:
“Owing to this (what he said) many of his disciples (who previously believed, yes?) went off to the things BEHIND and would NO LONGER walk with him. Therefore, JahEshua said to the twelve: ‘You do not want to go ALSO, do you?’ “
Those, who PREVIOUSLY believed… chose to no longer do so.

The point I was making about King Cyrus was again misapplied.
The example given was to include but not limited to Gods spirit to urge people to act out things that God wanted done. And yes some of the results were signs of the fruitage of the spirit. but not always. Not in the case of the Donkey used by the Lord spirit.
Did not God’s use of the donkey bring peace to Israel… a blessing rather than a cursing?
SJ wrote: You state;I am not sure how this example applies, other than although Jonah didn't want to BE chosen, God
Ellderwho wrote: My point missed again, Was Jonah able to choose? NO
BUT… that was the case of Jonah. I ask you: did Abraham have a CHOICE whether to offer up Isaac? COULD he have refused? If he COULDN’T, what really did he prove? If he did what he did… attempt to offer up his only-begotten son because HE HAD NO CHOICE… what exceptional thing did HE do?
What you are missing is the entire ISSUE about CHOICE. For that is the VERY challenge that Satan made against each one of us: that give enough pressure, we would CHOOSE to curse God and die – skin in behalf of skin and all a man has he WILL give… in behalf of his soul. When God called Satan on his challenge, Satan responded: REMOVE THE HEDGE. If then, God’s hedge… His SPIRIT… His protection is REMOVED… then that person is on his or her OWN to “make a reply”, aren’t they?
What you are suggesting is that we cannot reply for ourselves: we cannot choose God… good… LIFE… over Satan… bad… death. You suggest that God chooses FOR us. And with that I MUST disagree: we first must draw close to God… and then HE… we draw us to Christ.
You state:for it is not the heart of FLESH that I speak of. In the instance YOU gave, the heart (of flesh) IS of no use at all
Again, John 6:63 Jesus clearly states: the flesh counts for nothing, notta
I said that same thing to you, long before you chose to use it. However, you again miss the point: I am not speaking of the heart of flesh… and you entirely missed my application, including transplant OF the heart of flesh. I don’t think others here missed it, though.
Why you still hold on to the thought that there is a little bit, inside of a man, a little hope, a slight, slim chance there’s a flicker of good intention in mans heart, to draw himself to realize he needs God.

I hold onto it because my Lord said “HAPPY are those CONSCIOUS of their spiritual need.” These are the very ones who realize their NEED for God… their NEED to eat from the Tree… and so who SEEK to gain entrance. They KEEP seeking, KEEP asking and KEEP knocking. And it is God who opens the “Door”… my Lord… to such ones.

John 10:7, 8

True, this is not “good” in the sense that there is NO ONE good, except ONE. However, it IS one of the small “rays” of hope inside a man… along with the lack of deceit, lack of guile, lack of hypocrisy and lack of hatred that might be in a man. Even God has considered some “meek”… and that meek quality a “desirable” one.

I give you David, whose HEART was the basis for his choosing. You wish to make separations between WHY one is “called” and “chosen”, the PURPOSE (i.e., to be king, to be saved, etc.). However, I say to YOU that regardless of the PURPOSE… when EVER God chooses one, it is by means of an anointing with holy spirit… AND it is the WANT of that puts one in line FOR such calling, regardless of the PURPOSE.

IF such one truly WANTS a “pure” heart, cries out for it, asks God to MAKE in them a NEW heart, create such in them, then God KNOWS the foundation of this person’s MOTIVES. Such one is like the tax collector, knowing that he or she is a sinner… knowing that there is nothing “good” in him or her… BUT… willing to state that before God and ask HIM… to put “good” IN him or her. And that “good” can only come by means of God HIMSELF being “in” such one… through Christ. And therefore, God, who does not withhold holy spirit from those asking out of their WANT… grants such spirit.

Luke 11:13

I must say that I find it interesting, dear Ellderwho, that although you claim the Bible as your “authority”, you don’t seem to wish to comment on the Biblical support I have given you for this. You overlook where our Lord says, “Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down!” “Come to me, all you who are thirsty!” Rather, you wish to have believe that he will come to them… without them having to make the effort. That is an error. The effort MUST start with us. If we take the first step, then God will SEE our sincerity and will draw us to Christ. And Christ chooses us FROM this “drawing”… for many are INVITED… but few are CHOSEN.
I was simply paraphasing what Jesus words meant. In John 6:63 And it still stands, their is nothing in the heart of man. He is at emnity with God
You are in error. Mankind IN GENERAL is at enmity with God. However, by means of Christ, there are those who are at peace with God, who have been RECONCILED. That is what “reconciliation” means… such that there is no LONGER a “division”… by means of Christ:
“But NOW… in UNION WITH CHRIST… you who were ONCE far off have come to be NEAR… BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. For he is our PEACE, he who made the two parties one and DESTROYED THE WALL that fenced them off. By means of HIS FLESH… he ABOLISHED THE ENMITY, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union WITH HIMSELF into one NEW man and make PEACE; and that he might FULLY RECONCILE BOTH PEOPLES… in ONE body… to GOD… through the torture stake… because… HE HAD KILLED OFF THE ENMITY… by means of HIMSELF.”
“And he came and declared the good news of PEACE… TO you…, the ones FAR OFF… and peace to those NEAR… because THROUGH HIM… WE… BOTH PEOPLES (Israel and the nations) have the approach TO THE FATHER… by ONE SPIRIT.”
Ephesians 2:13-18
Hear, dear Ellderwho… and get the sense of it.
I wrote: Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).
Dear one, you again make my point: the world cannot accept it. Why? Because “it neither BEHOLDS it… or KNOWS it.” We CAN accept it because we KNOW it. We KNOW it… because we ASKED for it. We ASKED for it… because we WANTED it. But… we can also choose to REJECT it.
SJ wrote: Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart". Such "new heart" is "made"... by holy spirit
Ellderwho wrote: Your putting the horse before the cart By that statement your really saying a person gets the spirit of God when they ask.(horse/cart theory)
Isn’t that what Luke 11:13 says? What about Luke 11:10? Matthew 7:7-11? Revelation 22:17? Why do you disregard the very “authority” you claim to be led by?
Unless you've known people of the world that can accept the spirit of truth.
Tell me, what makes a person “of the world”? Is it not hatred for their brother? Doesn’t that identify the children of the Devil? Isn’t that who our Lord said would “hate” us? The world? And yet, are there not those who at time constitute themselves as part of the world by such things… and yet, REPENT? Does not God want ALL to repent? Indeed, all WON'T... but that is not HIS choosing, is it?
But... I give you Saul of Tarsus… later, the Apostle Paul. Did he not “hate” his brothers, even delivering up those of the Jews who put their faith in Christ? Did not approve of the stoning of Stephen? Was he not considered an ENEMY of the disciples? And yet… he turned around. Did he receive holy spirit FIRST? According to the account, he did not. According to the account, he FIRST… changed his heart:
“So Ananias went off and entered into the house, and he laid his hands upon him and said: ‘Saul, brother, the Lord, the JahEshua that appeared to you on the road over which you were coming, has sent ME forth, in that you may recover sight and BE filled with holy spirit.”
Acts 9:17
Now, I ask YOU… which came first: Saul’s change of HEART… or his receipt of holy spirit?
The same here you state: “they could not hear because they refused to hear. Their hearts... had grown unreceptive... and they did not ask to have a new heart created in”
again here: “Had they WANTED to hear,”
Yes, I did.
They could not hear a thing if their life depended on it (literally)!
As I have said, I disagree with you. True, THEY could not have made themselves hear. But you miss my point: had they truly WANTED to hear… and I don’t mean just SAYING they wanted to… but TRULY wanting to, as evidenced by what was in their HEARTS… GOD… would have GIVEN them ears. But… they didn’t WANT to hear… and so, no ears were GIVEN them.
You still hold that they could have heard but that they refused to hear his words.
And as a result, because they REFUSED to hear… they weren’t given ears TO hear. Just as they SAID:
“This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?”
Yet, it did not stumble his disciples. Why? Because they WANTED whatever it was he was saying. They WANTED to hear… and so, they heard and GOT THE SENSE OF IT. Why? Because what was being said what NOT of the flesh… but of the SPIRIT. Thus, even it if was difficult for their FLESH to receive, they stood firm because of their SPIRIT. And GOD… gave them HIS spirit… so that they could “hear”… and get the SENSE of it.
Had they wanted to hear… they would have. See my response above.
If thats the case why then did Jesus ask the question "why dont you understand my words
He wanted them to ponder that question, to ask themselves WHY it was that THEY didn’t get it. To look at THEMSELVES… for the DEFECT… was THEIRS. Not in their FLESH… but in their SPIRIT.
Jesus knew they heard him, this had nothing to do with their hearts, because of the fact the father had not abled them as Jesus states in John 6:65
And it was not GRANTED them by the Father… because of their WICKED HEARTS.
If that is not the reason, then why does Jesus in 6:45 say to the Jews while referring to the bread that comes from heaven, He states "stop grumbling among yourselves No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him... v45 "as it is written in the prophets: they will all be taught by God'
Dear Ellderwho, look at the context: my Lord said one thing, that he was “the bread that came down from heaven.” Yet, their response was “Is this not JahEshua the son of Joseph… how is it that he now says, ‘I have come down from heaven.’”
This is the VERY point I am making: HE was speaking of things spiritual; THEY… had THEIR minds… “on the things on the earth.” They couldn’t GET it, because they were PHYSICAL men… not SPIRITUAL men. They were listening with their PHYSICAL ears… but not their SPIRITUAL ones. It didn’t make sense to them. BUT… they didn’t WANT it to!
How do we know? Let me ask you: when these didn’t understand something, what did they do? They would become confused and most would leave off, yes? But the 12, what did THEY do? Did they not ASK FOR EXPLANATION and CLARIFICATION? WHY? Because… they WANTED to know!
The others dismissed my Lord as speaking “wildly”. His disciples, however, although they, too, sometimes thought he spoke wildly, still STAYED. Why? Because they knew he had something… and they WANTED it.
Your theology-- you are doing something without the father, because you've stated in the past;
And all one needs do is want to BE saved
We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability..
Indeed, I said that. Just as one wanted to be healed in my Lord’s day in the flesh, and he healed them, because as he said, “I WANT to,” so, too, those who truly WANT to be saved, CAN be, because my Lord would say, again, “I WANT to.” However, just SAYING one wants to be saved is not enough. It is what is TRULY in one’s HEART… as manifested by one’s WORKS… of FAITH.
Im really trying to understand your theology but it just doesnt make sense
Hmmmm… perhaps it is because it is not... "theology". I ask you “are you yet a teacher of Israel and yet do not know these things?” What I speak to you is of the Spirit. Therefore, it is WITH spirit… and not with the flesh… that they are examined.
Ive stated: Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life.
How then could those put faith in Christ… and follow HIM (“you have sayings of everlasting life”)… before they even RECEIVED such spirit?
John 6:68; John 20:22
John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).
You say that one receives holy spirit, and by means of the spirit exercises faith so as to hear. However, I give you John 7:39:
“However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him WERE ABOUT TO RECEIVE; for as yet there was no spirit because JahEshua had not yet been glorified.”
The disciples followed him… in the hopes of RECEIVING such spirit. And once such spirit was received, their faith GREW… and their “training” was finished by that spirit.
SJ wrote: Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart
Ellderwho: Your dispute is with scripture not I.
I think it is you who dispute scripture, or rather, that which you call “scripture.”
You state: the Bible... has no "authority" over me. Why you feel this way is puzzling?
Because I have one Leader, Christ. However, that you read John 5:39, 40 and yet do not get the SENSE of it… is NOT puzzling to me.
2Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is God breathed is this the part that has no "authority"
No, it is the part where you call the Bible “scripture”. For it is not.
you state "Confidence in the scriptures... will put you back under Law. What you follow... is the word written on paper in delible ink Even your "scriptures"..
Yes, I stated that.
No, what I follow is God breathed
You follow what God "breathed" (although, in truth, "inspired" does not truly mean that, but...). I, however, follow His Word. Again, I direct you to John 5:39, 40, so as to show you WHO... as opposed to WHAT... I "follow".
"All scripture is God breathed" 2Tim 3:16
All scripture is inspired. That means that those who wrote it were "inspired" or... IN THE SPIRIT... when they wrote it. Versus what you have been misled to believe it means. Even still, I do not need the “scriptures” as written on paper in delible ink. For the law… has been written… on my heart. By the spirit of God, through Christ. And it is that Spirit that “calls back to [my] mind,” the things my Lord has told me. It is that Spirit that leads me “into all truth.” Not a compilation of scripture, histories, chronologies, records and letters… all of which is NOT “inspired.”
You state: but it is one's desire FOR God's spirit... to DO so... that starts the process.
Yes, I stated that.
Your doing this on your own again.
You do not know the Source from which speak or the spirit that comes forth from that One. If you did, you would have held your words. Therefore, you cannot know that of which I speak… for you do not know the One from who I recieve it... nor his spirit. For if you did, you would also know HIS voice... and not need ANYONE to be teaching you.
Scripture clearly states " No comes to the son unless the father draw him"
And at NO time have I said otherwise or even disputed that, for it is entirely correct.
You quote Ps.51 Because we are born as sinners (51:5) our natural desire is to please ourselves rather than God
And, as I stated… and you have overlooked... it is our desire to OVERCOME our “nature”… that starts the process.
v.11 David has the "spirit" and still wants a pure heart.
First, David is not speaking; it is my Lord who is speaking THROUGH David. Why? Because David had sinned, to a point where he himself didn’t know what to say. So… his SPIRIT was given words… my Lord’s words… so that he could approach and ASK to have a NEW heart created. David’s HEART was examined… and “he who searches the heart s”… and “knows what the MEANING of the spirit is”… gave words to David’s “groanings”.
Romans 8:26, 27
The same for me for I know my heart is wicked.
As is mine, my OWN heart. I know this. I do NOT dispute it. However, the heart of MY spirit has been “recreated” by God, through Christ, so that it is HIS spirit that leads me… not my own. I forfeited my spirit… and thus my heart… to the One who BOUGHT me, REPURCHASED me… with his own blood. I live, then, no longer for myself, but for the One that bought me.
But How did Paul view this: Ro.7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.19 For what I do is not the good I want to do ; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. You see there is no good in us. period.
On my own, I absolutely agree with you. But now that God and Christ dwell IN me… and God IS good… then there IS good in me. By means of Christ. Thus, what now comes OUT of me… the “fruits” of GOD’s spirit… is good.
Again, I bid you peace… and ears… to hear.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
ellderwho

Dearest Aguest,
You asked me to re-read acts 10. Ive given you an explanation of your point. However you do not respond to the fact that your example of desire was not explained by the refuted point you were trying to make.
I must say that I find it interesting, dear Ellderwho, that although you claim the Bible as your “authority”, you don’t seem to wish to comment on the Biblical support
Look at it again;
You state:
Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes
I ask you what did they have faith in,(repentance)? and what actually were they believing in?
By your statement you are supposing they wished for something that they didnt even know existed.
Please, understand the background of the way Gods Holy spirt worked, and who knew of it.
I then ask you about your point of Judas, Your only response is;
I disagree: the choice starts... with us:
Again, If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
Why do you "choose" not to answer the example given? I believe you can not answer because your theology will not allow it.
You quote Acts 2
“Now when they heard this (Peter speaking) they were stabbed TO THE HEART and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: ‘Men, brothers, WHAT SHALL WE DO?’ Peter said to them, “Repent… and you WILL receive the free gift of the holy spirit.”
Do you realize what you are quoting,
Yes the message of Peter brought conviction,
This was for a people who had the Word of God, who had heard the message, who knew the prophecies.They had been going along in one direction, which was away from God. Even though they had a God given religion.
Why do you not quote v39 of Acts 2.
"For this promise is given unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord God shall call."
Maybe it conflicts with your theology. The point, they were told what to do. They had to ask "what shall we do"
But you state:"These made a CHOICE…
Did they really, what then were their options before the sermon?
The point of the "donkey" was given to show you a very minor point about the fruitage of the spirit.
Did not God’s use of the donkey bring peace to Israel… a blessing rather than a cursing?
Okay, if you say so, the donkey had fruitages' of the spirit. Whats the end result was the donkey saved.
I then give Jonah as a example of choice, If, as you say we choose God, Why did this not work in the case of Jonah.
And you just dismiss the example with:
BUT… that was the case of Jonah.
Then you go into Abraham;
I ask you: did Abraham have a CHOICE whether to offer up Isaac? COULD he have refused? If he COULDN’T, what really did he prove?
Ok, look at Gen 12:1 Here the LORD calls him. Whats your point?
Was it Abrahams "choice" to make his elderly wife able to have children agin? To establish the "great nation"
So the LORD almighty appears in a vision Gen 15:4-5 LORD tells him his offspring will be his heir.
Then takes him outside and shows him the stars.
v6 Abram beleives the LORD,and was credited to him as righteousness.
Did Abram decide one day, gee I think I want to have a covenant with Yahweh.
Lets look at another example you give Job.
You state about decission(Jobs) in this case:
then that person is on his or her OWN to “make a reply”, aren’t they?
Job states he "loathes his very life" Job 10:1
10:15 If I am guilty woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.
Here Job knew God viewed him a faithful man. But with that said their was still nothing there inside a man.
v18 "why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me.
Here Job knows their is nothing of himself.
You make this point
:These are the very ones who realize their NEED for God…
Back this thought up with scripture.
Paul speaking to the Galatians, 1:15
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the gentiles"
So tell me where was Paul choice?
As far as the conversion of Paul, did Paul stop on the road and look up and say "lord why am I persecuting you and your church.
Or did the Lord come to Paul and state "why do you persecute me"
v10. "The Lord called him in a vision"
v15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go, This man is my choosen instrument to carry my name before the gentiles and their kings"
Tell me again what was Pauls choice?
You state again;
it is our desire to OVERCOME our “nature”… that starts the process
Truly then if you can prove this thought then we have something to debate.
You have said I overlook the scripture you give.This is not the case.I have explained to you the examples you have presented as your argument.
One has to lean very hard on the idea that a person has a flickering of good inside a body that is not only dead in ones sin but, seperated from God by this sin.
You seem to think that wea re not totally seperated and that we can somehow muster up, or develope, or search our own sinful nature to try and find something we can come to God with, and scripturally it just isnt there, You can, however, search the scriptures but in the end what you wind up with is mans effort to reach out to God from this sinful state we can not get ourselves out of.
This is exactly what religion is.
Mans effort to re-link with God through repetition.
In Christ
ellderwho
ellderwho

Aguest,
Sorry, Was in a rush to go to work and forgot the main question you had on ignoring your quoted scripture.
Isn’t that what Luke 11:13 says? What about Luke 11:10? Matthew 7:7-11?
lets look at Matthew 7:7-11
But first look at v6- Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Their are times and certain places when its not worthwhile to say a word. This is a judgement we need to make.
We know there are swines and dogs in our society. What should we do?
Jesus tells us in the next verses,7-8
ask, and it shall be given you;seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Follow the context of scripture;
We rub shoulders every day in the "world" of non-believers. work play family and thieves ect.. what are we to do Jesus tells us to knock, ask seek. definitely refers to this problem.
now verse 12( golden rule)
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prohets.
The question is when you meet someone new, how are you going to treat them? You dont know - you are not to judge what if he's a dog or swine, false teacher, how do you know? prayer!
Many people just lift this verse from the text and let it stand alone. Look at the word "therefore" it relates the golden rule to that which preceeds it or postulates it on prayer.
Only as we ask, seek and knock are we able to live in the light of the golden rule.
Why do you disregard the very “authority” you claim to be led by?
You see Aguest, we shouldnt hold ideas of doctrine , and then go to the bible and try to back them up, contextually your point is mis-applied to the scripture you quote.
You state:
Because I have one Leader, Christ. However, that you read John 5:39, 40 and yet do not get the SENSE of it… is NOT puzzling to me.
You misunderstand the scripture your telling me to heed.
The verse is not an imperative but is an indicative. Example "You search the scriptures." Hes making a statement; He is not urging them to do something. He tells them that they search the scriptures thinking that in them they will find eternal life but they dont understand that the scriptures testify of Jesus.
Now lets look at who chooses who?
Ro.8:7 because the carnel mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God nor can it be.
8:14 for as many as are led by the spirit of God these are sons of God.
8:26 like wise the spirit also helps in our weakness for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought.
8:29 for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
8:30 moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called; these he also justified...
Ro.9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having any good or evil, but the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calls.
9:13 as it is written Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated.
9:15 for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion on
9:16 So it is not of mans desire or effort, but of God who shows mercy,
9:17 scripture says about Pharoah; I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power.
9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden
Ro 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
2Cor 1:9 yes we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raised the dead,
4:6 for it is God who commanded light to shine out of the darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God who seperated me from my mothers womb and called me through his grace
1:16 to reveal his son in me
Gal 4:8 But then indeed when you did not know God, you served those who by nature were not gods.
4:9 but now after you have known God or rather are known by God...
5:3 you have been called to liberty, only do not use the liberty as an opportunity for the flesh
Eph.1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.
1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself
1:11 In him we also have obtained as inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
2:1 and you he made alive who were dead in trespass and sins
2:3 among whom also we all conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh and in the mind and by nature children of wrath.
2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
4:4 there is one body and one spirit just as you were called in one hope of your calling
Phil.1:6 being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a work in you, will complete it until the day of Christ
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations but now has been revealed to his saints
1:27 to them God willed to make known them the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles
2:13 and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him
3:12 therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved put on tender mercies
1Thes2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into his own kingdom
2Thes 2:13 but we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the begining chose you for salvation through the sanctification by the spirit
2:14 to which he called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord
2Tim1:8 who has saved us an called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own pleasure
Dr. Boyce gives a good example of choice. The example of a lion
who is by nature a carnivore(feeding on flesh) and you put a big bowl of oats in front of the lion. Will he eat the oats, Im sure he could chew on them, might be very dry for him, but the answer is no he will not eat the oats. He will not eat because it is not his nature.
With us, it is not our nature to seek God. However one can serve many gods that are out their, but to truly desire a intimate close relationship with the creator is just not in our nature to do so.
Thats why the examples of hearing are so important. We have gone back and forth on hearing often arguing past one another. you might agree that hearing the word of God starts faith. The ? has God turned on the spiritual ears?
Lazzarus was called forth by Jesus not because he felt sorry for the relatives so much than the glory of God.ie. could Lazzarus tell his dead bones to get going
Just a thought
in christ, ellderwho
AGuest

may you have peace. Okay, let's continue, shall we? You first:
I ask you what did they have faith in,(repentance)? and what actually were they believing in? By your statement you are supposing they wished for something that they didn’t even know existed.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean. But I don’t think I am supposing what you assert, and I think dear Noko answered you correctly. Perhaps it is you who assume… that these did NOT know about the holy spirit. Let’s take a look at the transliteration of the original Greek, which, according to one Bible version (NWT) says:

“We have not so much as heard whether there be any holy spirit.”

Now, one COULD say that these were saying that they had absolutely NO knowledge of any holy spirit. However, since it also says that they WERE “acquainted with the baptism of John,” it would be HIGHLY unlikely that they had not even heard OF the holy spirit. How so? Because John TOLD those who followed HIM… that there was one coming AFTER him… who would baptize IN such spirit.

Thus, it would seem more logical to understand that what they were saying is that they had not heard whether the spirit with which the One coming after John would baptize WITH… had indeed arrived. In that case, it would be for this that these written about at Acts 19… were waiting for… and so had NO problem when Paul offered it TO them. Why? Again, because John had TOLD them that something was coming AFTER his baptism. And now, by means of Paul… that “something” had indeed arrived… for them!

However, if what YOU have assumed is true, then they would have most probably balked at what Paul was now saying. Why? Because they had already been baptized in “John’s” baptism, yes? Why the need for another? Wouldn’t they have challenged Paul’s assertion that they needed this, too? No, NOT if they already knew it was to come. So Paul’s words were NOT foreign to them and they were NOT saying, “Now, Paul, we’ve never whether there even WAS to be some holy spirit!” Rather, they were SAYING, “Now, Paul, we hadn’t heard yet whether there BE the holy spirit (no one had told us that John’s words indeed have come true!)”

With regard to what I am “supposing,” I tell you truly that I am CONVINCED that these were WISHING to be reconciled to God - to receive His forgiveness and favor, and as a result, receive LIFE… everlasting. That is WHY they got baptized into “John’s”
baptism to begin with… and WHY they accepted the SPIRIT offered by Paul at this time. Paul didn’t bring them something NEW… but brought them news of the fulfillment of what they were EXPECTING, as they had been TOLD to expect by John. These “heard” when John spoke, got the “sense” of it… and so OBEYED: they got baptized as John told them to do… and then awaited the NEXT baptism… that with “fire and spirit”… as John TOLD them to do.
Please, understand the background of the way Gods Holy Spirit worked, and who knew of it.
I do understand, dear one. Truly. I promise you.

I then ask you about your point of Judas, Your only response is; “I disagree: the choice starts... with us.” Again, If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
Well, I thought my response sufficient. Every response to a demand for a reason for one’s hope does not HAVE to have a verbose and elaborate reply. When necessary, our Lord gave a lengthy reply; when it wasn’t, he simply made his point. I responded appropriately to you, for I spoke the truth: the choice… starts with us.

But I will expand on that, for your benefit. I ask you, when our Lord said “Have I not chose YOU?”… what led him to such choosing? Did he not go to the Father and ASK which were to be the twelve? So, the 12 were led… DRAWN… to Christ BY the Father, yes? And that is what our Lord said, that no one can come to him unless the Father “draws” such one, yes? But… WHY does God draw such one to Christ? THAT is the question that this entire discussion is based on… and I fear you have missed.

So, permit me, please, to show you how it works:

1. WE… draw close to God (Note: It says that we cannot draw to CHRIST, for the Father DRAWS us to that One; however, it DOES say we can draw close to God, yes? In fact, we are instructed to do so, yes?

2. However, it does NOT say, “God will draw you close to Him and/or Christ and as a result you will draw close to Christ,” does it? Rather, does it not say “Draw close to God… AND (indicating that as a result) He… will draw close to YOU?” Yes, it does say that. So… it is WE who must FIRST draw close to God… and THEN He will draw close to US!

3. But HOW… does God… draw close to US? By drawing us to CHRIST… the “One” through WHOM we must GO… to GET to God!

So, when one is seeking GOD… IF one is truly seeking to find Him… God DRAWS that one to CHRIST… to the “Door”… THROUGH which such one must “enter”. By that means, such one is then “found”… BY Christ.

I will give you an illustration:

1. A sheep is lost and wants to find its way home (notice, the sheep WANTS to find his way home). Why? Because it is outside the safety of the “pen”… and there are “wolves” out there.

2. The owner of the sheep knows that this sheep is seeking
him.

3. So… the owner… because He LOVES the sheep… sends out a
SHEPHERD…

4. And then draws that sheep TO that shepherd…

5. By giving that shepherd the means to give the sheep “ears” to “hear” the shepherd’s unique voice…

6. So that the SHEPHERD… can lead the sheep HOME… to its owner.

Now, to explain the illustration:

1. You (a sheep)… are lost. But… you WANT to find your way home.

2. Your owner (God)… because He KNOWS you… by means of KNOWING your heart… KNOWS that you want to be “found” and brought home.

3. So… your owner (God)… sent out His “shepherd” (Christ)… to “find” you.

4. Then, your owner (God) draws you TO that shepherd
(Christ)…

5. By giving HIM (Christ) His (God’s) SPIRIT… so that such SPIRIT can poured out upon YOU… to “open” YOUR “ears”… so that YOU can “hear” the “voice” of the Fine Shepherd…

6. So that by MEANS of that “voice”… HE (Christ, the Fine Shepherd)… can lead you back to your owner (God)!

But, now, let me ask you this, please: what if you didn’t WANT to go back to your owner? What if you WANTED… to stay outside the pen? Would God come and MAKE you return? Or would He let you do YOUR “will”? I mean, HIS “will” is to have you home safe. But should He MAKE you come home? My thought (logically) would be “no.”

Okay, so let’s say you WANT to stay out there; what happens when the shepherd calls you? Either you:

1. FAIL to hear the shepherd when he calls (because you were distracted with doing your own “thing” out there – getting home was not a priority for you); OR you
2. REFUSE to hear the shepherd when he called (because you didn’t WANT to hear his particular “whistle”. So… you “hardened” your heart… and as a result, you EARS failed).

And either of these… whether FAILING to hear… or REFUSING to hear… can result in you MISSING the shepherd’s call… and thus NEVER being “found”… and therefore NEVER finding your way home… but rather, being “eaten” by wolves. Yes?

However, since the owner LOVES you… and WANTS you to return home… because He knows YOU want to return… He WILL give you ears… TO hear… if you ASK for them! Cry out for them! But only if you truly WANT them! He is not going to force you to hear… nor is he going to force you to return home. Why? Because he only wants you to BE there… if you WANT to be there! Thus, he will only ask… and invite… you to return. It is up to you to ACCEPT the invitation, to CHOOSE.

Hear, then, the LESSON of the man who gave a marriage feast:

“The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. And he sent forth his slave to call those INVITED to the marriage feast… but they… were UNWILLING to come.”

I am sure you “heard” that, yes? That these were not unABLE to come… but unWILLING? Okay, let’s continue, please:

“Again, he sent forth other slaves, saying, “Tell those INVITED: ‘Look! I have prepared my dinner, my bulls and fattened animals are slaughtered and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast.’ But UNCONCERNED they went off, one to his own field, another to his commercial business; but the rest, laying hold of his slaves, treated them insolently and killed them.

“But the king grew wrathful and sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. THEN he said to his slaves, ‘The marriage feast indeed is ready, but those INVITED… ARE NOT WORTHY. Therefore go to the roads leading OUT of the city and ANYONE (or as many as) you find… INVITE… to the marriage feast. Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered together all they found… WICKED AND GOOD; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those reclining at the table.”

Matthew 22:2-10

Did you get the SENSE of this parable, dear Ellderwho… that those initially invited CHOSE not to attend? And that those who were ultimately invited… AND attended… not only were wicked AND “good”… but did so because they CHOSE to accept the invitation?

Did you get it that, like those before them, they COULD have refused? True, not all of those ultimately invited and who made it to the feast were chosen to STAY; however, apparently NONE of them REFUSED the invitation – none were “UNwilling”.

And THAT is why it IS initially up to us, dear Ellderwho… because my Lord issues an INVITATION:

“If ANYONE is thirsty… let him come to ME and drink,” and “”Come to ME… ALL you who are toiling and loaded down…”

And where there is an INVITATION… there is a CHOICE. If there were no CHOICE… there would be no need for an INVITATION. God would just choose FOR you… draw you to Christ… and that would be that. Done. He would be sitting there saying, “Okay, that one… and that one… and that one. Make ‘em come to my Son. No, I don’t care if they don’t WANT to come… I am God and they HAVE to ‘cause I said they have to.”

But that is not the case. Instead, it is WE who say, “Father, I know I am not worthy, that there is nothing good in me, and so all I can ask for is your tender mercy, your loving kindness, if you wish to give it.” And He, being the “good” that HE is… will determine if our heart is “upright” in our asking… or whether it is deceitful.

And based on HIS determination… we can receive His MERCY. For although we don’t DESERVE it, God… shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show mercy. We don’t DESERVE it… there is nothing we can do to WARRANT it. Rather, He GIVES it… because HE is ‘good’… not because WE are. Thus, it is “undeserved” kindness. Mercy.

Now, I need to explain here what the “upright” heart versus the deceitful one is: it is NOT as earthling man thinks. Earthling man thinks that all he has to do is SAY he wants thus and so, and it is true. But that is NOT true: for how many times have you THOUGHT you wanted something… until you RECEIVED it? And when this happens, MOST times it is because you didn’t really think the matter through, right? You THOUGHT you wanted thus and so job… or you THOUGHT you wanted thus and so mate… or you THOUGHT you wanted to live in thus and so place… or you THOUGHT you wanted…

But when you GET that something… you realize that it is NOT what you wanted, because… it comes with other things that you did not consider! It is the same with God: we might say with our LIPS, “Yes, Lord, yes, I want to serve you!”… but with our HEARTS, we might be saying, “As long as serving you means this and that… and DOESN’T mean this and that. I can/will do this and thus, Lord… but I can’t/won’t do thus and so.”

So, then, you heart is NOT “upright”, for there are “caveats”: “I love you God and I will serve you… so long as I don’t have to do this or that.”

I give you the following parable of my Lord:

“… who of you that wants to build a tower does not FIRST sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, he might LAY ITS FOUNDATION… but NOT BE ABLE TO FINISH. Or what king, marching to meet another king in war, does not first sit down and take counsel whether he is able with 10,000 troops to cope with the one that come against him with 20,000?”

His point? Can we PAY what we VOW to God… when He calls our “marker” in? When he says to YOU… “Come! Be my follower!” Can YOU “drop your nets” and leave ALL your belongings behind and follow him, the Lamb, wherever HE goes? A LOT of people say “yes,” dear Ellderwho… until they are called to do it. They can NOT pay to God what they “vowed” to pay.

I see it all the time, folks asking: “Why doesn’t God use me, speak to me, send Christ, to me, etc., etc., etc?” According to YOU... GOD... doesn't want THEM! But I absolutely disagree with you. Rather, it is THEY... who do not want HIM. Thus, when I respond to them that my Lord indeed called them… but THEY DIDN’T HEAR... I am told that I am in error for saying such a thing, because, according to them, *I* don’t know.
However, I DO know… for if they HAD heard… they would have HEARD him say, “Come! Be my follower!” and they would have abandoned “all their belongings”… and followed him. Does that mean they would never go BACK to such belongings? No, for even the disciples returned to their nets after a time. But, they had to LEAVE them first, SHOW that they COULD follow the Lamb… wherever HE went.

So, they “rationalize” instead, that my Lord would not ask such a thing. When the very history that is recorded shows that that is EXACTLY what he did, does… and will yet do. And those who do not hear… whether they fail… or they refuse… so as to live “no longer for themselves” but for the One who “bought” them… get angry at HIM… and at GOD… when it they who are at fault. They TOLD him they would DO anything… and when he called, they say, “No, he didn’t call – because I didn’t HEAR him call.” Yet, when he did, they convinced themselves that it was not so. Why? Because… they didn’t WANT to go.
Why do you "choose" not to answer the example given? I believe you can not answer because your theology will not allow it.

I did answer it. It is my belief that you cannot HEAR (did not hear?) the answer because you are concerned with such things as “theology” and “searching the scriptures,” rather than simply following the explicit direction of God, and THAT is to listen to His SON. Thus, I would like YOUR response to what that Son himself said:

“You are searching the scriptures…
because you THINK…
that by means of THEM…
you will have everlasting life.
And these… (the scriptures)…
are the VERY ones…
that bear witness…
about ME.
And yet…
YOU…
do not WANT to come…
to ME…
that you may have life.”

You quote Acts 2 - “Now when they heard this (Peter speaking) they were stabbed TO THE HEART and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: ‘Men, brothers, WHAT SHALL WE DO?’ Peter said to them, “Repent… and you WILL receive the free gift of the holy spirit.” Do you realize what you are quoting,

I absolutely do.

Yes the message of Peter brought conviction,
It did. But conviction of what? Their lips? The lips “say” a lot of things, do they not? But isn’t it as God said, that:

“These people honor me with their lips… but their HEARTS… are far removed from me.”

Why would that be of note, dear Ellderwho? If God simply chooses us without regard to what is in our hearts, why would He CARE if our hearts were far removed? Wouldn’t… couldn’t… He just CHANGE that FOR us? Couldn’t He… WOULDN’T He… just take EVERY heart that is “far removed” from Him… and DRAW it to Christ? And wouldn’t that be EVERY heart OUT there?

Again, I am sorry but it is you who fail to hear.

This was for a people who had the Word of God, who had heard the message, who knew the prophecies. They had been going along in one direction, which was away from God. Even though they had a God given religion.
Yes, okay, I do not dispute that (although I must ask you: what “word” of God did these have?

Why do you not quote v39 of Acts 2 - "For this promise is given unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord God shall call."
Maybe it conflicts with your theology.
It in no way conflicts with my “theology.” Rather, it supports my understanding, just as I have received from my Lord, that just as in the case of Noah, of Lot, of Abraham, of Jacob, of Rahab, and of many others… MY faith… can also be applied to the salvation of my children… indeed, my entire household. The entire households of these were saved… by means of the faith of one: Noah, Rahab, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, etc. By means of acting as the “priest” for their own households, such ones could “offer up prayers” and make requests on behalf of their ENTIRE household… and have such heard by God:

NOAH, exercised faith and built an ark so that his household was saved – his daughters-in-law as well. RAHAB exercised faith and hid the spies so that upon request that her ENTIRE household be saved, her request was granted. LOT entire family COULD have been saved, even his sons-in-law. Etc., etc., etc

However, that fact had nothing do with what we were discussing. What we are discussing is borne out in the words “and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord God shall call.” But you over look that fact while MANY are called… invited… FEW… are CHOSEN. I refer you back to the parable of the marriage feast.
The point, they were told what to do. They had to ask "what shall we do"
The POINT, dear one… is that they were TOLD what to do… because… they ASKED! And they ASKED…because they WANTED to know! Those who did not hear did not hear because they did not ASK. And they did not ASK… because they did not WANT!

I refer you to the account of the widow who gave a few small coins of little value at the temple. As my Lord said of her, she GAVE… out of her WANT.

May you be granted ears, dear Ellderwho, to HEAR… get the SENSE of it.
But you state:"These made a CHOICE…
Indeed, they did! May I take you b ack to the widow? She gave because she WANTED to… out of her WANT. What did she want to give… and thus GIVE? “All that she had.” However, what did the others give? “Out of their SURPLUS.” What was the difference? The widow wanted it SO bad… she gave ALL SHE HAD. The others wanted it, but not enough to give ALL THEY HAD. So, they gave what they deemed they could “afford.” How, though COULD have afforded more, them or the widow? So, by COMPARISON… she gave MORE. Why? Because she LOVED more… and WANTED more.
Did they really, what then were their options before the sermon?
Their options were the same as ours: to listen… and accept what was said… by means of the holy spirit… or reject it and leave. Dismiss it even before hearing it… or while hearing it; didn’t matter. They could have gone either way. These CHOSE… to stay… and they CHOSE to LISTEN… and ACCEPT… what they heard. The same as the disciples when Christ told them they must eat his flesh and drink his blood – when others CHOSE to STOP listening and no longer follow him, the disciples CHOSE to stay and CONTINUE following him.

Those at Acts did NOT say, as did those who left off from following my Lord, “Now, wait, Peter, this is against everything we’ve ever been taught; we can’t accept this!” They didn’t say, “But WE heard it was said such and so… and now hear YOU are telling us THIS?!” But… that is exactly what the Pharisees and those who abandoned walking with our Lord did, isn’t it? I ask you, why did some who STARTED following the Lamb… STOP?
The point of the "donkey" was given to show you a very minor point about the fruitage of the spirit.
Oh, dear one… the FIRST point of the donkey is to show US that even a beast of burden… a lowly creature… can have respect for God… and thus can be given the ABILITY… by MEANS of holy spirit… to behold that realm… that God will even grant His spirit to a lowly animal… and if to a lowly dumb (not stupid, but mute) animal, why NOT to us… we of little faith… if only we WANT it… SEEK it… ASK for it?

In contrast, the SECOND point is that Balaam, a man who had “spiritual” powers… did not respect the SOURCE of those powers and so attempted to beat a path to MISUSE them to curse those under its protection… for a profit. Why?! Because….HIS HEART WAS BAD. He THOUGHT he was “rich”… but in TRUTH… he was naked… and BLIND… and miserable… and pitiable.

Therefore, initially he had no “eyesalve” (holy spirit) so AS to see the spirit realm and the being from it standing before him. However, to REVERSE what Balaam was on his way to do, God GRANTED him to see… out of MERCY. Why? Because one Balaam realized WHY the donkey stopped, HE… had a change of HEART! Re-read the account, please.
SJ wrote: Did not God’s use of the donkey bring peace to Israel… a blessing rather than a cursing?
Ellderwho wrote: Okay, if you say so, the donkey had fruitages' of the spirit.
Ah, I see: you think that animals cannot receive God’s spirit. Tell me, if they can receive “bad” spirits (I remind you of “Legion”), why can’t they receive a good one? Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us? Then you do not get the sense of what is written at Ecclesiastes 3:19-21:
“For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of man, and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the SAME eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but ONE SPIRIT, so that there is NO superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there know the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?”
I ask you, IF the lion is to eat straw JUST LIKE THE BULL… by what SPIRIT will that lion do so? Will it not be the “fruit” of God’s Spirit… that is the spirit of PEACE… that will come to be BETWEEN the lion and the bull… just as GOD wills it? By what SPIRIT, then, do you think God’s “will”… will be “done”?
Whats the end result was the donkey saved.
Indeed, the donkey WAS saved! Did you not read the account?
“And the she-ass got to see me and tried to turn aside before me these three times. Supposing she had NOT turned aside from before me! For by now even YOU I should have killed, but HER… I should have preserved alive.”
Do you not think that animals can and will be saved, dear Ellderwho? Were not animals saved through the Flood? Does not God save man… AND beast?
Psalm 36:6
According to the account, it was because of the donkey… her stopping… and God’s MERCY… that Balaam… was saved… was it not? I do not know where you get YOUR “theology” from, dear Ellderwho. But it has misled you… and is misleading you.
I then give Jonah as a example of choice, If, as you say we choose God, Why did this not work in the case of Jonah.
And you just dismiss the example with: “BUT… that was the case of Jonah.”
I did not dismiss the example of Jonah; I gave the case of Jonah and that it was NOT the same as we are discussing, but a case FOR Jonah to learn God’s mercy. That is WAS Jonah’s HEART that was at issue… and the lesson was and is for those who do not wish to have a similar heart, one that is obstinate, angry… and unmerciful.

May you be granted ears, dear Ellderwho, to hear… and get the SENSE of it.
Then you go into Abraham
I did. And I wrote:
“ I ask you: did Abraham have a CHOICE whether to offer up Isaac? COULD he have refused? If he COULDN’T, what really did he prove?”
And you responded:
Ok, look at Gen 12:1 Here the LORD calls him. Whats your point?
My POINT… was that God called Abraham and made a request. And Abraham COULD have refused that request… but CHOSE not to. And that THAT is why God lauded Abraham - for his CHOICE. The words, “You have not withheld your only-begotten son,” indicate that Abraham COULD have withheld him, do they not?
Was it Abrahams "choice" to make his elderly wife able to have children agin? To establish the "great nation"
Oh, Lordy, dear Ellderwho. Let me ask you: did not Abraham and Sarah WANT children? Was not Sarah HEARTBROKEN because she was barren? Do you think it brought her JOY to have to give her maidservant so that her husband could have a child? Is not God the God “of the brokenhearted?” God… answered their prayer. AND because Abraham did not withhold the VERY “blessing” that God had given him, because Abraham did not DOUBT God would come through on his promise, Abraham did not hesitate to offer that very blessing, his son Isaac, up to God. Isaac was a gift FROM God… and Abraham was willing to offer him as a gift… TO God.

Thus, Abraham chosen to be the father of a “great nation” Because he CHOSE to give up HIS son… just as God would give up HIS… when he could have refused. True, God stopped him… but if God had NOT have stopped, he would have gone through with it, without hesitation: “Abraham AS GOOD AS offered up Isaac. But… he COULD have chosen NOT to… refused. He DIDN’T refuse… he didn’t even QUESTION God… because out of HIS heart… he WANTED to do “just so.” God didn’t MAKE him… he WANTED to.
So the LORD almighty appears in a vision Gen 15:4-5 LORD tells him his offspring will be his heir. Then takes him outside and shows him the stars. v6 Abram beleives the LORD,and was credited to him as righteousness.
Oh, wait… Abraham “believes”… even before realizing this promise? Wait! He left Ur and went out to a land he did not know and dwelled in tents before he received the land God had for him. Why? Because God MADE him go? Because God MADE him believe? Because God MADE him pack up and live nomadic life for centuries? Or… because he WANTED to… was WILLING?
Did Abram decide one day, gee I think I want to have a covenant with Yahweh.
No. Abraham was INVITED to have a covenant with God… and he ACCEPTED. Why? Because he had a heart that was RECEPTIVE: something was offered… and he RECEIVED it, willingly. He INDICATED his receptiveness… he DEMONSTRATED his faith… by DOING what he was asked… instead of refusing. He CHOSE to obey God… he was not FORCED to obey.
Lets look at another example you give Job.
Okay, let’s.
You state about decission(Jobs) in this case:
Yes. I wrote: “then that person is on his or her OWN to “make a reply”, aren’t they?” And you go on to state:
Job states he "loathes his very life" Job 10:1
10:15 If I am guilty woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.
Here Job knew God viewed him a faithful man. But with that said their was still nothing there inside a man. v18 "why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. Here Job knows their is nothing of himself.
(Smiling) Tell me, why did Job think this of himself? Was it because God MADE him think it? Or, rather, could it POSSIBLY have been because of Job’s HUMBLE and LOWLY heart… rather than a haughty, judgmental, and unmerciful one like his “companions”... that made him realize... and ADMIT it?
You make this point “These are the very ones who realize their NEED for God…”
I did.
Back this thought up with scripture.
Well, now, let’s see… I quoted it: “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual NEED.” But you obviously need more. So, okay… “spiritual need”… what does that mean? Hmmm… need… for the SPIRIT? Of course it does. Why? Why does anyone NEED the spirit. Could it be because the spirit… is “life-giving”?
Okay, so where does such “life-giving” spirit COME from? God, yes? So, in order for one to RECEIVE such “life-giving” spirit, one would NEED God, yes? Of course, one cannot get such spirit directly from God, but have to receive it from God’s SON… the “Life-Giving Spirit”… the one who pours it out… from whose inward parts it flows, yes?
Paul speaking to the Galatians, 1:15
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the gentiles". So tell me where was Paul choice?
And yet, Paul was not always "receptive" to that, was he? Didn't he have to have a CHANGE OF HEART?

As far as the conversion of Paul, did Paul stop on the road and look up and say "lord why am I persecuting you and your church.
Or did the Lord come to Paul and state "why do you persecute me"
v10. "The Lord called him in a vision" v15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go, This man is my choosen instrument to carry my name before the gentiles and their kings". Tell me again what was Pauls choice?
Paul’s FIRST choice... was to persecute the disciples. Then, he had a CHOICE… NOT go to Ananias… to NOT become that instrument. He could have refused. However, if what YOU say is true, that Paul had NO choice... then YOU are saying that Paul’s persecution of the chosen ones… his consenting their being killed, yes, even to the stoning of Stephen... was GOD’s will… and not Paul’s… that he was an “instrument” of God even at that time... and simply could not help what took place. But you are in error.

For Paul DID go to Ananias... because... he had a CHANGE OF HEART. And he went on to become my Lord's instrument… because he had a DEBT he had to pay off. For he was GUILTY of the blood of the Christ, by means of being GUILTY of the blood of the brothers of Christ. SO… Paul CONSENTED to being used as an instrument… but one that would “suffer for the sake of Christ’s name,” in EXCHANGE for the suffering he brought upon the disciples. And thus, he paid his debt… not against God… but against Christ:

Matthew 24:38-46
You state again: “it is our desire to OVERCOME our “nature”… that starts the process…” Truly then if you can prove this thought then we have something to debate.
First, I have to take exception with your logic: if I can PROVE the thought... then there is nothing TO debate. The PROOF... would end the debate, yes? Okay, now for that "proof":
Job words prove it, as does David’s, Paul’s, etc. They didn’t LIKE what they were… and knew that only by means of Christ, could it be CHANGED. But they knew they had to WANT to change... that such change would not come only because GOD had foreordained it... but that such would OBEY such foreordination. For the foreordination is with regard to the MANNER of the administration... and not the individuals who make it up. For the calling and choosing must be made SURE... by US.
And once our hearts have been changed to accept Christ as our means for salvation... God, through Christ, "seals" us... and thereafter, finishes our training. And if we "break" such "seal"... by means of CHOOSING the bad... as did Adam who had NO sin in him and was led by God's spirit... then there is no longer any salvation left FOR us. We were granted to eat from the Tree of Life; we CHOSE... the Tree of the Knowledge of Good AND Bad
You have said I overlook the scripture you give.This is not the case.I have explained to you the examples you have presented as your argument.
Okay.
One has to lean very hard on the idea that a person has a flickering of good inside a body that is not only dead in ones sin but, seperated from God by this sin.
All it takes is a flicker. If it there, God will see it and DRAW it... to Christ. But… okay. Whatever.
You seem to think that wea re not totally seperated and that we can somehow muster up, or develope, or search our own sinful nature to try and find something we can come to God with, and scripturally it just isnt there,
There is something: a contrite heart (spirit):
"To THIS one, then, I shall look, to the one afflicted and CONTRITE IN SPIRIT and trembling at my word."
"He that humbles HIMSELF... will be exalted."
"He gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones."
"Humble YOURSELVES, therefore... that God might exalt you."
Etc., etc., etc., etc....
There is also our “good” INTENTIONS, dear Ellderwho. By means of Christ, however, who will EXAMINE our “thoughts and intentions”… that separation can be done away with. If he determines that our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS… are good... while our flesh may NOT be... he... Christ... can... and will... make up our deficit. While WE may not be good, our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS can be. Why? Because they come from the HEART. And if our heart is clean… then our thoughts and intentions can be clean. The thing is that we try to “fool” the holy spirit by SAYING that our thoughts and intentions are good… when they aren’t.

But we can’t hide from the Spirit: if what is “in” us is NOT good… it is manifest to God and Christ. For NOTHING is hidden from them. On the other hand, if our thoughts and intentions ARE good… that, too, is manifest to them. That is why they don’t LOOK at the “outward appearance,” but, as God said to Samuel:

“But as for JAH, HE sees… what the HEART is.”

But perhaps that “truth” is lost on you. I don’t know…
You can, however, search the scriptures but in the end what you wind up with is mans effort to reach out to God from this sinful state we can not get ourselves out of.

We CAN get ourselves out of it, per se. True, there is nothing we in and of ourselves can do… other than ACCEPT the PROVISION for getting out of it: there is a RANSOM that has been paid. And ANYONE who “wishes” can benefit from it… IF they are truly wishing, thirsting, and hearing. And we can get out of it... IF we accept that ransom... and the invitation to follow the One who provided it with his own flesh and blood. The ransom is there; however, as it said, "not ALL hear, do they?"
This is exactly what religion is: Mans effort to re-link with God through repetition.
My apologies, but again, you err. Religion… is not man's effort. That is a misleasing. Religion... is a false "light”, set up by the one who “keeps transforming himself into an angel of light,” to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. We are "children of light," looking for the TRUE Light. Because we are DRAWN to that Light by God... Satan knows that "light" is what we are drawn to... and so has set up a plethora of false "lights" to DRAW us... not TO God... but AWAY from Him.

But religion does not lead man to God, nor does it lead man to Christ. Why? It can't. Why? Because those who truly belong to God already HAVE a leader – One. And they already HAVE a teacher – One. THAT One is the Truth that leads to everlasting life. He IS the only Light. There is no other. ALL who come in place of him are thieves... and plunderers. Why? Because i t is not knowing ABOUT him that leads to everlasting life – rather it is KNOWING HIM… and being KNOWN by him… that does so.

Religion has been set up to LOOK like the “real” thing… to LOOK like the “truth”… to LOOK like the “way”. Yet, it accomplishes its true goal more often than not: rather than leading earthling man TO God… it leads man AWAY from God. How? Because sooner or later that “hired man” ABANDONS the sheep… devouring widows houses… placing heavy loads on the sheep… judging and condemning them, rather than forgiving and releasing them… and misleading the sheep to follow THEM… and the traditions and doctrines of MEN… rather than the Lamb… wherever HE goes. Or, alternative, the sheep get SO abused or SO disillisioned... that they blame GOD... and leave Him as a result.
Religion has a purpose... and it does its job quite well.

Again, I bid you peace… as well as ears… to hear.

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SJ
ellderwho

Dearest Aguest
You were presenting a decent argument for your position of choce until you quoted the NWT in Eccl.
“For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of man, and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the SAME eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but ONE SPIRIT, so that there is NO superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there know the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?”
Ive had this same discussion with an Jw elder, the quote you took or the passage your using is revealing your trust in a badly translated Bible which is revealing the basis of your beliefs.(your theology)
The first is ONE SPIRIT I guess you put it in caps to really bring out your point.
Why is the NWT the ONLY bible that translates this word as spirit Of the four bibles I have on hand and 27 on CD. ROM none translates as spirit --H7306 ruach roo'-akh Strongs; A primitive root; properly to blow, that is to breath; only (literally) to smell or (by implication perceive (figuratively to anticipate, enjoy):-accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.
Ask your self why? Do you think maybe it has something to do with slanted doctrine.
You know, and I know, why they do this, because they have a belief and then go the the scriptures and try and defend it.
And if they can not extract it they will actually change a word to accomplish this
You state:.
Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us? Then you do not get the sense of what is written at Ecclesiastes 3:19-21:
And your asking me if I get the sense of it ?
Do we share the same breath as the beast? I would say yes.
Changes your point NO?
As far as Judas your evading the point.
You state:
Did he not go to the Father and ASK which were to be the twelve?
Ive never read that ,so you will have to show me the verse.
John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Dearest aguest,
here you state: to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. We are "children of light
Who do you say is choosen? and where did you get the light?
Show me portions of scriptures not just one or two verses here and there that shows choice. You might come up with isolated verses pulled out of context, but what do you have? as in the chapters Ive shown you from Rom 8:8 thru 2Tim 1:8 its there and it teaches election. Time permitting theirs plenty more.
Romans shows us how desperate we are and you seem to think hes wrong, theres no confusing being dead. Its all by him.
I stated:
Paul speaking to the Galatians, 1:15
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the gentiles". So tell me where was Paul choice?
You state:
And yet, Paul was not always "receptive" to that, was he? Didn't he have to have a CHANGE OF HEART?
Answer the question.What was Pauls choice?
There is also our “good” INTENTIONS, dear Ellderwho.
Im confused, what part of Pauls statements in Ro. 3:11 Do you not understand?
'There is none righteous, no not even one; there is none that understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless, there is no one who does good.
remember;this There is also our “good” INTENTIONS, dear Ellderwho.
This exemplifies double speak:
If he determines that our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS… are good... while our flesh may NOT be... he... Christ... can... and will... make up our deficit. While WE may not be good, our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS can be. Why? Because they come from the HEART. And if our heart is clean… then our thoughts and intentions can be clean. The thing is that we try to “fool” the holy spirit by SAYING that our thoughts and intentions are good… when they aren’t.
You go back and forth with good intentions, to bad flesh, to Christ filling in, to not being good, to good thoughts, to maybe a clean heart, to maybe clean thoughts, to trying to trick the Holy spirit of having good thoughts, to not having good thoughts?
Your not going to fool the Holy spirit, your fooling yourself with this kind of non-scriptual double speak. Oh, thats right the scriptures(God word) doesnt have authority over you.
Again, more non-biblical double speak;
But we can’t hide from the Spirit: if what is “in” us is NOT good… it is manifest to God and Christ. For NOTHING is hidden from them. On the other hand, if our thoughts and intentions ARE good… that, too, is manifest to them. That is why they don’t LOOK at the “outward appearance,”
This statement is typical of man trying to justify his lot in life.
If you would only accept the words of Gods written authority that you do not recongnize, maybe it would come clearer to you that Pauls words ring true:
'There is none righteous, no not even one; there is none that understands, no one who seeks God.
How this goes right over your head is amazing.
I leave with this, show me in scripture groups of verses strung together referring to each other ie.(Paul quoting OT) that give the idea of choice.
I challenge you, then you will have something to bring.
Up until now you have brought nothing to back your "choice" maybe one or two misapplied verses. Ive given you thirty or so verses that all tie together. All with the same principle. And thats not even digging very hard.
Dearest Aguest,One suggestion ,use that NWT as a guide for what you shouldnt read.
In Christ
ellderwho

Heaven

Acts 2:37, 38

John 10:7, 8

Luke 11:13

Ephesians 2:13-18

Acts 9:17

John 6:68; John 20:22

Romans 8:26, 27

Matthew 22:2-10

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