Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus 207 Replies latest jw friends

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  Mr Lebowski

  I think it's interesting that minimus started the thread with the statement, "Jehovah's Witnesses are under mind control", but Randy's link to the thread from freeminds.org is headlined "Are Jehovah's Witnesses under mind control?".

  Since I didn't take responsibility to make sure I was addressing the actual topic of the thread, I was participating in an incorrect fashion. I though that a question had been asked. It hadn't - I was wrong. Minimus made a statement - minimus did not ask a question. Lots of people agreed with it, some didn't. The statement used a term which minimus never defined (my research shows a number of different definitions for the term "mind control", and the first one I Googled is included below), and so the discussion, while spirited, has consisted mainly of a lot of emotional reactions to the words "Jehovah's Witnesses" and "mind control" being in the same sentence.

  Since I don't agree with the statement, then minimus referring to it by saying "some truths are undeniable" is interesting. It's a discussion board. We're discussing it - that's what the board is for. And using statements like "some truths are undeniable", while undoubtedy personally true for you, minimus, don't seem to support the purpose of a discussion board - unless minimus wasn't looking for discussion of a question, but was instead looking for people to agree with a statement. (Bah - now I'm starting to sound like a wanker.)

  It seems safe to say that, regardless of the definition of "mind control", most of the posters here want it to apply to JW's.

  (from http://www.factnet.org/coercion.html?FACTNet)

  Mind control is the shaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality without the person's knowledge or consent. Mind control employs deceptive and surreptitious manipulation, usually in a group setting, for the financial or political profit of the manipulator. Mind control works by gradually exerting increasing control over individuals through a variety techniques, such as excessive repetition of routine activities, intense humiliation, or sleep deprivation.

  I would state that Witnesses consciously agree to change their attitudes and beliefs, and that the manipulation is overt, without the use of the techniques listed here. To me, that truth is undeniable. However, I'm still interested in discussing it, as long as we can agree on what "mind control" means for the purposes of this discussion. Rigid, oppressive techiques were used by Stalin in ruling the USSR, but that didn't qualify as mind control either. The lack of freedom of expression, or of freedom of speech, or of freedom of dissent, does not constitute mind control. Doesn't make it nice, right, or good - but it's not mind control.

  I think the raising of kids as JW's (as GaryB referred to earlier) is an interesting topic, and one that probably merits another thread.

  Professor Brain had spent his life in search of the truth - so he could place it under house arrest. Robert Anson Heinlein

  My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness. The Dalai Lama.

  The Dude, out.
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  minimus

  Hi Dude, I enjoy your posts. And yes, I, even I, didn't ask a question. The funny thing is that while I'm reading your comments that are meant to disagree with me and others, I keep saying, "Yeah....I agree with that." Here's my take: Prospective Witnesses do not fathom what is really entailed to be a good JW. They are not given the fine print and if they are, it is not absorbed by them until much later. In a whirlwind, thousands of Bible students were given a 6 month program to become JW's before the "end" came. Thousands of children got baptized and had no real concept of what they were into til much later on in life. Meanwhile, these individuals were being weekly conditioned to accept some of the craziest things, like accepting no blood transfusions because a scripture says to "abstain from blood". People were told all of a sudden because 2 deaths occured while pagans celebrated birthdays that to celebrate is unchristian. People are told that they CAN stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag but they MUST sit during a National Anthem. People are told that having oral sex with your mate is a sin and the result is that thousands do not indulge. Then a ruling is suddenly changed and now persons can do it without disfellowshipment......If accepting these things doesn't prove some mind control to you, then, that's your business.
• 

  Mr Lebowski

  Well, mine, and anyone who reads the board, I guess ;)

  Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. (Heinlein again?)

  See y'all in a week - I'm off to vacation.

  Duder
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  undercover

  Mind control is the shaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality without the person's knowledge or consent.

  It's the last part that makes the debate interesting. The first part is a given. The second part is where it gets tricky. I have to ask, if certain technics are applied so that the person doesn't realize what is happening over time, would this not fit in the description? You're not forcing someone to do something, but over time, you shape their attitude, etc. Now you don't have to force them to follow your dictates, they actually want to.

  Mind control employs deceptive and surreptitious manipulation, usually in a group setting, for the financial or political profit of the manipulator.

  The WTS is deceptive, we can all agree on that, can't we? They use a group setting, in fact, independance is frowned upon. I guess we can debate what profit or gain is realized by the "manipulator" but it looks to me that money is the motivator.

  Mind control works by gradually exerting increasing control over individuals through a variety techniques, such as excessive repetition of routine activities, intense humiliation, or sleep deprivation.

  Exerting increasing pressure. Ask anyone who was a JW and they will tell that the pressure to do more, give more is a constant reminder at all meetings and in the publications. Repitition for emphasis. That's a key phrase in the Ministry School. Constant rehashing of the ideals and beliefs of the group is the norm. Intense humilation. Intense may be a strong word, but ask anyone disfellowshipped how they felt. Ask any JW about how they would feel to be disfellowshipped. Sleep deprivation. This is a stretch, but I've heard others mention this, so maybe I'm not so far off: The WTS keeps its members so busy with the meetings, service, assemblies, etc, that they don't have time to sit back, comptemplate, or question anything. It may not be sleep deprivation, but it is a deprivation of time. All my life as a JW, I've heard how "we are a busy people" How many JWs talk about how hard it is to keep the schedule as outlined by the WTS. How many actually live up to it?

  I think the raising of kids as JW's (as GaryB referred to earlier) is an interesting topic, and one that probably merits another thread.

  Actually this makes a big difference on this thread regarding the knowledge/consent area. I was raised "in the truth". My attitude, beliefs and personality was shaped to accept that being a JW was the only way to God. Was this without my knowledge or consent? Technically yes. I was too young to make any other kind of decision. You can argue that about any religion or lifestyle I suppose but it does present something to think about.

  PS Thanks for the commendation, Minimus.
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  minimus

  You know, I have to wonder why Mr. L does not want to accept the idea that JW's are under mind control. I think that he thinks a person has to be under extreme duress to be under real mind control".For me, it just seems so obvious.
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  SisterLiz

  Another form of "pressure" (mind-control...whatever) is the reactions of your JW peers when you do something "not quite acceptable". There aren't actual rules or regulations regarding certain things....they're left up to conscience, but not really. If your conscience allows it and you do it, they may not be able to reprimand you but people's behaviour around you changes and it almost seems like they're all turning their backs on you. For example, I new this woman who really liked blue nail polish (she was an elders wife no less), she noticed people acting differently with her and she could tell it was because of the nail polish. Her husband eventually asked her to stop wearing it. These subtle pressures are ways of controlling people without really verbalizing anything. People want to fit in and be on good terms with everyone so they try to fit into the mold. Individuality is definitely not recommended. How petty can they get. GOD I'M GLAD I'M OUT!!!!!!
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  heathen

  Mind control is the shaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality without the person's knowledge or consent.

  I'm with undercover on the fact that the last part of this statement is incomplete . I think it should include that mind control is even more effective if a person willingly submits to dogma from a religious group that makes that person act in a programmed pattern that was determined by others claiming to speak in Gods behalf.

  I agree that if you were raised in the religion that it was without your consent or knowlege and you were probly publically humiliated while you were attending meetings . I have seen them beat the hell out of their kids for being a kid and wanting to play and not being able to sit quietly thru a long ,boring production. I have to cringe everytime I hear a youngster answer questions at the watch tower study knowing that they couldn't possibly understand what they are saying but merely sound like a parrot when they try to read back the underlined parts of the paragraph.
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  minimus

  Even commenting can be a sign of this control. Many times you are "encouraged" to read directly from the paragraph and express exactly what the "Slave" says. When kids are made to answer, made to preach to utter strangers, made to sit quietly thru meetings, made to sing songs that suck-----this is all part of subtle intimidation and obvious control. One does not need to be Einstein, to figure it out.
• 

  Mr Lebowski

  <vacation departure delayed:)>

  Petty... conformist... controlling... domineering... pressuring - absolutely.

  But acting in a controlling fashion is different from "mind control".

  Seen the movie "Far From Heaven"? The subtle pressures you describe have been part of American society for generations and human society for thousands of years, and JW's have no lock on them. That's how many societal groups work. Peer pressure, fear of rejection, is a powerful behavior modifier - but it only works if we let it. Even works with hairier primates than ourselves...

  UC, I think there's a little bit of a fallacy in your logic about the motivator being money. Most of the ones initiating the pressure are individuals who receive no financial advantage from their involvement. Even COs don't get as nice a life as they could have being in one place. Any organization makes sure that the ones at the top are cared for...but the ones that do the most damage in the KH from a peer-pressure point of view are the "true beleivers", not the fat cats in Brooklyn. I do concur that money and power are the motivators at the top.

  As far as how the various types of intense pressure and threats such as df'ing, shunning, etc., would feel, I don't need to ask anyone, Undercover - I know. :/ I'm not writing in a vacuum here, and I suspect none of us are.

  As Gary B pointed out, the WTS uses a lot of the techniques which can be attributed to "mind control" by some writers. I simply believe that they don't use them to a degree, or level of immersion, where they qualify as "mind control". They certainly do qualify as intense, focused efforts to keep the faithful in line, but I would equate it more with the Hindu threat of re-incarnation as a rock in the next life if you're bad in this one. The fact remains that any JW can leave whenever they want to, and many of us are living proof. You just have to want to leave badly enough to pay the prices, and let me echo that I'm glad I'm out as well - it was the best action I ever took.

  Usually, the things that are really obvious to us don't need to be discussed on boards... so, M, you posted it for a reason. Maybe it was to give others something to think about.

  As far as the kids go, I think the question of how to ethically impart any belief system to kids is fascinating, and probably not at all obvious. I'll think about that one next week.

  Thanks for the thoughtful discussion, all. Think of me hiking spritedly, golfing abysmally, and lounging unmercifully all next week.

  El Duderino
• 

  minimus

  "Any JW can leave whenever they want to"......That's as true as saying, "Any Cuban can leave Castro or Cuba, whenever they want to". .....Yes, JW's or Cubans or Iranians could leave whenever they want to, but there are powerful reasons not to. For those leaving an authoritarian government, the possibility is that their escape will result in their death. For JW's, simply leaving is not just an option. And if you do believe the rhetoric, you won't WANT to leave. And why is that? Because your mind is convinced that leaving means one's death everlastingly! When one truly believes that there is really no other place to go but to Jehovah's organization, that must be understood as an honest feeling. And the feeling is believed because the mind is controlled to a great extent by the propoganda that is filtered to the believers.