Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7

by raymond frantz 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Fisherman

  Again, there's just no basis for saying this other than assertions from you, JWs, some others.

  Not an assertion. There is a basis, as you have probably read wt commentary and scriptural basis with argumentation in support of the belief.

  Relating to the literary device Paul used referring to a heavenly Jerusalem as having real foundations, etc., one shouldn’t conclude too much other than these spiritual men saw something better from God other than the temporary enjoyment of sin.

  But if you read carefully my previous commentaries that you are kindly responding to, all I meant to say is that it makes sense to me that some people will live ultimately on earth as wt teaches about God’s Eternal Purpose, and some people will go to heaven to reign with Chirst.
  
  
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  fulltimestudent

  How do your make sense out of religious people's fantasies?
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  neat blue dog

  There is a basis, as you have probably read wt commentary and scriptural basis

  Yes and it was all very shallow based on literally a few out of context scriptures. Even Jesus' answer to the Sadducees about marriage in the resurrection leaves no doubt. There is "THE" resurrection, not heavenly and earthly. Jesus said there is "one hope", not two. The two flocks that will become one aren't heavenly and earthly, but Jews and all others that get grafted in.

  Rom. 6:3, "do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" He says ALL of us. Now verse 5, "If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will CERTAINLY also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection." In what body was Jesus resurrected?
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  Gman2001

  Revelation 7:4
  

  Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

  Revelation 7:9-11

  After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

  “Salvation belongs to our God,
  who sits on the throne,
  and to the Lamb.”

  11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

  The Great Crowd is in heaven at the throne with the angels. The whole "two class" idea is made out of whole cloth. No one has the authority to pick and choose what they will interpret as literal and spiritual.
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  raymond frantz

  Vidqun, apologies I was away from thr forum for a couple of days, yes I agree with you.

  Thanks guys for all the comments very much thought provoking I have to spend sometime checking all the link provided
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  Fisherman

  How do your make sense out of religious people's fantasies?

  The subject I am commenting on is the interpretation of what the Bible is saying, not validating whether or not what the Bible says is true.That is a different subject.
  
  
• 

  Fisherman

  Why select that number to be literal when all around it are considered symbolic?

  Regardless. It is a finite number. Not everybody goes to heaven.

  How could you represent a finite number symbolically instead of simply revealing the number. Number is also a fraction of the vast majority, etc.

  144k = 1M? 144M? 12? unknown?
  

  Also, the number or people is predetermined not so with those on earth, the door is open for everybody.
  
  
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  neat blue dog

  With all due respect I see a lot of WT-like 'evidently' deductions, but you still haven't addressed one of the scriptures I cited, except for saying that Abraham really represents God, with no proof at all.
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  Fisherman

  NBD

  How does criticizing an argument debunk it?

  But first of all, are you saying that the door is open for everybody to go to heaven according to your Bible interpretation?
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  neat blue dog

  Everyone who puts faith in Jesus, yes