how about the fact that there is a tribe of Joseph and another one for one of his sons? a departure from previous lists? A throwback to the original blessings, but why cropping up at that late date?
Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7
by raymond frantz 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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peacefulpete
how about the fact that there is a tribe of Joseph and another one for one of his sons? a departure from previous lists? A throwback to the original blessings, but why cropping up at that late date?
A sectarian revisioning? An editorializing signalling?
A screw up? -
neat blue dog
Job or Daniel or Abraham or Noah or any of the righteous or the ones the promises were given to goes to heaven
There is literally nothing of the sort in the Bible. In fact Paul explicitly said that Abraham was 'awaiting the city having real foundations... A heavenly one... New Jerusalem". Jesus also gave the illustration of the rich man and Lazarus where Abraham was IN heaven to greet him when he died. It's practically spelled out.
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Disillusioned JW
I think that idea of Abraham being described as in heaven was because at the time there was the idea of a section of Sheol (namely the idea of righteous Jews in Sheol being in a separate place of Sheol, away from the unrighteous) being lifted up to heaven. That special place in Sheol was thought of as Paradise by some Jews in the 1st century CE.
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Nephilim87
Blues brother.
They believe the number is literal because it’s mentioned more than once.
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Fisherman
NBD
First of all, it is a conclusion. However, in Jesus’s illustration Abe represented God in heaven—doesn’t mean that he will go there. Also, everybody waits for the city having real foundation, a new earthly society with the Messianic government—doesn’t mean you will go to heaven either.
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nowwhat?
But what about the great crowd? They are clearly in heaven and rev 19 confirms it
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neat blue dog
Abe represented God
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everybody waits for the city having real foundation, a new earthly societyAgain, there's just no basis for saying this other than assertions from you, JWs, some others.
Another thing: Look at Isaiah 25:8, "He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it." Isaiah 25:8 is clearly a parallel of Revelation 21:3,4 which is one of the only proof texts for Earth that can be found in the New Testament.
How does Paul say that scripture is fulfilled? At 1 Cor. 15:54, "when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever."
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peacefulpete
Revelation 21:3,4 which is one of the only proof texts for Earth that can be found in the New Testament.
FWIW.......It says clearly a "new earth" this one has been destroyed in the great tribulation and subsequent destruction by God. History was cyclical in the minds of many ancients.
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neat blue dog
Again, see Isaiah 25:8. It also says "earth" but Paul references this scripture and say it will be fulfilled in heaven.
"He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth"