So ... Russia and Nato at war? Should we be worried?

by Simon 68 Replies latest social current

Simon

I'm struck by the difference in warfare between different countries. It is bad-form to shoot someone parachuting out of a burning plane or shooting at a rescue helicopter. It just highlights again how difficult it is to pick "the good guys" in all this.
I remember reading an article about the Falklands war where they would switch from trying to shoot a plane down to then going on a rescue mission and trying to save the same pilot's life even though he had just been bombing them. The same things happened in WWII.
It should be about neutralizing an opponents ability to attack, once that is done then killing them is effectively murder. Now it seems to be kill anyone and everyone at all cost. Sadly, something we've seen supposedly professional soldiers from civilized countries do.
Greener

Turkey has the right to defend its territorial integrity and airspace. The Russians have been quite brazen over the last few years trying to provoke/probe American and NATO airspace, and unfortunately for them, they got burned this time. Can you actually trust any Russian media reports? There is no free apolitical media left in Russia. The open VHF and UHF frequencies were used by Turkey to warn the Russian pilots as monitored by independent media sources.
These Russian pilots and planes are no match for American/NATO pilots. Even the F-16s which are over 30 yrs in service are superior to the SU-24s. Good for Turkey in defending itself. I don't condone the shooting up of parachuting pilots of course.
Latest news is that Putin has vowed "revenge" against Turkey. What does that mean exactly. Can we or do we even want to read Putins mind here? Will Obama finally listen and take into account his military intelligence on these matters. This is the first conflict of late where America does not have air superiority in numbers in such a conflict.
The Turks have the right to defend the indigenous Turkmens in northern Syria. The president of Turkey and Mr. Hollande are real leaders. One is a Muslim brotherhood member and the other an avowed socialist. They make Obama look like a pathetic wimp.
It will be interesting how this all plays out. God save America from this Obama/Clinton middle east policy. If the Turks evoke NATOs article 5, ie. collective NATO defense, will NATO come to Turkeys aide? Does Obama have the stomach for a fight? Americans are way ahead of Obama on this issue.
Simon

Turkey has the right to defend its territorial integrity and airspace.
The Turks have the right to defend the indigenous Turkmens in northern Syria
You seem a bit mixed up. One minute it's borders that matter and the next it's ethnicity. Which is it?
Hint: they contradict ... you know there are other actors involved and rights apply equally?
It's this kind of cowboy thinking that get's America into messes that it can't get out of.
I think shooting down a jet even if they were violating airspace is an over-reaction, especially as it seems to be a dubious claim with it only consisting of a few seconds flight at most even if technically true (again, not yet proven).
Here's why the Turkish claims are BS: The aviators + rescue copter were being shot at. Was that over Turkish territory? Of course not ... so they were leaving their airspace = Turkey being rogue and supporting factions in the region.
If the Turks evoke NATOs article 5, ie. collective NATO defense, will NATO come to Turkeys aide
No, because Turkey was not attacked which is what the NATO agreement is all about. They were the ones who shot down the plane. If Russia had gone into Turkish airspace and shot down a Turkish jet then it would be very different. But it isn't. I know you're a republican and hate the inconvenience of facts but in this case it has little impact on Obama.
Americans are way ahead of Obama on this issue.
I know you don't want to admit it, but Obama is American y;know. He;s your president remember :D
notsurewheretogo

The issue is we still don't know the facts as the two stories from Russia & Turkey are miles apart at the moment...was they in Turkey's airspace or not? Did 10 warnings over 5 minutes occur? Etc etc...
You can't trust any media outlet so everything else is mere speculation....NATO have come out in support of Turkey though.
Greener

I think you don't want to understand what I am saying. I will make it simple for you.
Turkey has the right to do both. Defend its borders and its brothers across the border in Syria. The latter point is my opinion and that of the Turkish government with regard to the Turkmens, just like its your opinion that Turkey has overreacted to the Russian jets activities.You know who the Turkmens are right?
With regard to Article 5 of NATO, my comments on this are not simply about the possibility enacting it over this particular issue, but over the numerous times over the past few months that Russia has penetrated Turkish airspace and the over flights of Russian cruise missiles shot from ships in the Caspian Sea. Another provocation. You know what an F-16 is and a SU-24 are? I flew CF-18s and C-130s sir, so enough of your rabble on the aircraft. The radar records will be available in time. Your military and strategic expertise is extremely limited.
The Russian plane was fired upon approximately a half mile inside Turkish airspace. These planes fly very fast? understand? The plane and pilots dropped came down inside Syria but were shot at/downed while the plane was in Turkish airspace . The Obama administration has verified these facts and support the Turks. Are you running the Simon military intelligence/guess service over there?? Really. Support Obama on this one. Please don't contradict yourself again by not supporting Obama on his/US military intell evaluation.
Your left wing political commentaries don't bother me. You want to see a weak and diminished America. The election in 2016 will ultimately decide matters and be the Obama administrations final legacy and judgement by the American people not that of your sort. He and his party and Mr. Sanders will be defeated soundly. You have no say in the election because you can't vote in the US. Even Democrats.. members of his own party are splitting with this President on some issues regarding the Middle East.
Have you looked at Obamas and Hillary's approval/disapproval ratings lately? Obama has about 14 months left.
You love the liar Hillary apparently. She may be behind bars sooner than you think when the FBI finishes with her. Then you can't vote for Sandinista/socialismus Sanders.
Simon

So if Turkey has the "right" to cross someone else borders based on some people being descendants (not citizens) and someone having their borders crossed has the right to defend themselves then two sides both have "the right" which would mean neither are in the wrong ... you know both can't be in the right don't you? It's pretty basic.
That is what you're effectively saying. It makes little sense unless you're a republican trying to get another one of your pointless wars started. Obama is right not to rush into it ... imagine the better world we'd have now if Bush had showed a fraction of common sense? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz ... is there any republican hawk that retained any credibility? Even republicans are ashamed of their last administration and can't distance themselves from it enough (except "my brother kept us safe" Bush who forgot about 9/11).
The rest is just your tired and worn out typical right wing ranting about Obama and Hillary. I can't wait to see the candidate the republicans pick, it's going to be hilarious, the GOP process is already pure comedy gold. Please, please, please pick Rainman or Herr Trump.
Twitch

Herr Trump, lmao
"America uber alles!"
Greener

Its actually very simple. Turkey is Americas ally so I support them whether you understand that or not. I have many friends in their military and they are honorable people and are great pilots. So that skews my opinion.
Its your British Empire after WW1 who drew most of the artificial borders in the Middle East, Africa and around the world. If you want to use the reasoning of some on here about who to blame for the world situation as is, why not go back and blame British/French imperialism for all the worlds problems?
No I don't believe that any government does everything perfectly or wrongly all the time, whether its Bush or Obama etc.
Your silly left wing remarks about Republicans show your ignorance, but hey its only politics. This is nothing compared to facing down the enemy in battle. But then, you wouldn't understand that. You would just cower and try and crawl under a rock, soil yourself somewhere or play video games.
Left wingers like you don't want to have a debate on the issues and ideas. You want to throw rocks at those on the other side and look down your noses with some perverted sense of superiority, so I'm just returning this in kind back at you. Whether its Trump or Rubio or Ted Cruz etc etc..they will take down Mr.Sanders.
You can fawn all over the liar Hillary. The gutless heartless woman who lied to the families of my murdered comrades in front of their coffins about the bogus Benghazi video. She lied to their faces right there as did Obama, by blaming the video, when she knew all along that it was a terrorist attack. The woman who lied about coming under sniper fire in Bosnia, just like Brian Williams lied about. etc.etc.
The FBI will take her out long before the election in 2016. Then the American people will decide.
Village Idiot

Greener:
The FBI will take her out long before the election in 2016. Then the American people will decide.
If the FBI will "take her out" before the election then how would the American people decide? And by the way, how exactly will the FBI "take her out"?
Simon

how exactly will the FBI "take her out"?
I think it's after more hearings than were done for 9/11 and the JFK assassination and the Republicans still didn't land a clean blow or find anything to even make a Fox News headline over Benghazi they have to cling to something.
The hearings were actually great ... they made her look tough and presidential and the partisan panel like clowns.
Turkey is Americas ally so I support them whether you understand that or not. I have many friends in their military and they are honorable people and are great pilots. So that skews my opinion
We're talking about foreign policy, not whether you like your friend "Bill".
Likewise, policy should be set based on circumstances, not just blind adherence to some notional list of friendly countries. If you bothered to check you may find that Turkey is like Pakistan ... sure, great allies ... just.
Its your British Empire after WW1 who drew most of the artificial borders in the Middle East, Africa and around the world. If you want to use the reasoning of some on here about who to blame for the world situation as is, why not go back and blame British/French imperialism for all the worlds problems?
I'm sure mistakes were made. But you guys messed up Iran. Then you messed up Iraq. But sure, it was all due to 1919 and nothing to do with the last Bush presidency and false-war that caused all the problems in the region.
Then the American people will decide.
Do you think the American people will be voting for the Republican party? We may be witnessing the death spasms of a party as they fracture and become more and more extreme to appeal to a smaller and smaller pool of radicals.
BTW: The Herr Trump was a play on the brown-coat like treatment of protesters and his xenophobic fascist opinions of minorities but also his "hair" (herr ... get it?). It's sad, right now he is the last great hope of the GOP (tries to keep face straight and not snigger). But hey, if he doesn't work out you always have more great candidates to chose from like Rain-Man or one of the Jesus jokers!
Don't get down Greener and never give up believing, however much reality tries to break into your world view - keep the faith. Go republicans, yay !!!! :D

So ... Russia and Nato at war? Should we be worried?

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