Question for SBF (page 15)

Fisherman

Wt will never compell members to give money.

TD

Morpheus,

In fairness, TD, “sanction” wasnt my word, it was slims.

I understand.

I was simply pointing out that mormons use simple cult Fear Obligation Guilt to coerce memebers into tithing and are effective at it.

I don't disagree, Morpheus, but beating people over the head and scaring them is not enough in and of itself. (It gets old rather quickly....)

The reasons why members of the LDS faith are willing to tithe go way beyond guilt and fear.

Members in good standing are taken care of when they are sick or out of work. JW's don't do this.

The LDS church sponsors numerous youth programs. JW's don't do this.

The LDS church doesn't just encourage college education, they sponsor a full blown university. It will be a cold day in hell when the JW's do anything like that.

The LDS church builds recreational facilities for it's members. JW's don't do this. Hell, the LDS church has even rented the Anaheim Disneyland for the use of its members. That would be another cold day in hell event for the JW's

I'm not trying to be an apologist for the LDS faith here. I'm just pointing out that members in good standing receive substantial benefits for their donations and we shouldn't underestimate the power of self interest.

Fisherman

the power of self interest.

As it relates to the Mormoneys. An insurance policy is cheaper and would pay more than the Mormon Church in benefits than the 10 percent tax levied on followers. It is also cheaper to go to Disneyland with your own money. But followers would still be required to pay even without benefits. It ain't the benefits that motivates the Mormons, they are coerced. Albeit Mormon Religion use money for business. JW movement is not about that.

You can start your own movement and use the money however you like but the money used in the JW movement is only spent for expanding the movement - converting people to JW. Most people and religions will do anything to survive at any cost but not wt if if it violates a basis of faith -take blood for example. WT existence is based on its faith and that is why they are not going to resort to survival methods contrary to their faith. WT leadership ain't loosing any sleep over financial problems and if they have to close down for financial reasons, they will do it without a worry in the world and operate from a barn or something.

Fisherman

Something that I know first hand about Mormon tithing is that some decades ago, someone I knew was studying with the Mormons. After a while studying with them, he told me that they kept pressuring him to tithe. He wasn't even part of the group yet. Soon after he told me, I went to his house one day and the Mormons were there and when I came in it was all smiles and handshakes etc. ( of course I was saying to myself: 'Babylonians!') I pretended to be aloof from the discussion they were having with him but I was listening and they were all over him asking him over and over again to tithe.

For JW, FS is voluntary but it is compulsory at the same time because it has to be reported and if a person doesn't participate he is branded as irregular etc. And besides that FS is what being JW is all about.

Getting donations of suggested amounts for wt products and services is all over. The doors are closed for good.

The ball is already rolling. JW will understand that like FS and meetings they will also need to contribute. Donations is something like FS and meeting attendance that they have to do but unlike FS and meetings no one is watching and no consequences for not donating. It is between him and God. JW will understand that donating is part of their worship. And that is how wt will be financed. Up to now, it is like SBF posted, JW figured that by giving their time and volunteering they didn't need to give cash. They will understand that they also need to give cash. That is the bottom line.

konceptual99

Except many Witnesses are tighter than a gnat's chuff. Just try settling the bill in a group meal outing...

Ruby456

fisherman perhaps JWs will succumb to donating only in the years to come when it becomes much to expensive to engage in ministry as well?

Drearyweather

to do but unlike FS and meetings no one is watching and no consequences for not donating. It is between him and God.

True. I dont remember reading any testimony or story here where anyone has complained that elders used to hound them for money.

Instead there are many here who themselves have said that they have never put a dime in the contribution box.

Even with the GAA/KHAA, no publisher is forced to give in the per publisher decided amount. It is the secretary who transfers the funds from the contribution box. Even with the perpetual kingdom hall construction donations, each congregation has the freedom to choose how much money they will send, which in many congregations is very less than their usual KH mortgage payments. No one questions it, neither the CO nor the branch.

TD

Fisherman

As it relates to the Mormoneys. An insurance policy is cheaper and would pay more than the Mormon Church in benefits than the 10 percent tax levied on followers. It is also cheaper to go to Disneyland with your own money.

No argument with your math, Fisherman. In a similar vein, prudent planning will net you a much more comfortable retirement than compulsory systems (e.g. Social Security in the U.S.) and with a little self discipline, the cash award in a lottery or sweepstakes can almost always be made to outperform the annuity. On paper, abstract principles should win out over human nature, but I don't believe that's how it typically works for most people.

I don't know if JW children still say this, but when I was much younger, a canned response to taunts from other children at Christmas time was that they didn't need to wait until Christmas to receive presents. And again, while this is true in theory, I doubt very much if that's how it actually worked out in actual practice.

As a JW you can take your wife out dancing and you can take your children to Disneyland, but those things are not going to be done under the auspices of your church. For most JW's those sort of things occupy one side of the scales while JW' duties and obligations occupy the other.

My point vis-a-vis the Mormons is not about money per se. It is about harnessing human nature rather than fighting against it.

Fisherman

It is about harnessing human nature rather than fighting against it.

I feel your pain TD, and also, after lauding you as one of the very top greatest posters on this site together with Marvin Shilmer and SBF, it is hard to give you a reply that disagrees with you. It is with a spirit of respect and admiration and with fellow feeling that I reply to your views.

joe134cd

I can't remember the actually figures but for the money the mormon church makes with its profit and not for profit it's in the billions. If I recall they return less than 1% to charity and it's members, just a few hundred million dollars. Just recently they built a 5 billion dollar shopping mall in downtown salt lake city. As the prophet was cutting the ribbon for the opening of the mall he said "let's go shopping". Could you ever imagine how that would go down in jw land. Maybe an ex-mo might be able to elaborate more on this.

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