by Vanderhoven7 150 Replies latest watchtower bible
"No need for most scholars prefer 586 BCE."
This is a brave statement which may have been broadly true a while ago, but Scholarship moves on, unlike the Poster "Scholar" who slavishly adheres to the JW Org's spurious use of Scripture and History in the main.
This Thread has been hi-jacked and has moved on from discussing how the Babylonian Tablets, VAT 4956 included, support the fourth Month of 587 BCE as the destruction of Jerusalem by King Neb.
See https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/216056/vat-4956-comparison-lunar-three-time-intervals-years-568-7-bce-588-7-bce for AnnOMaly's excellent thread analysing the astronomical observations in VAT 4956 against the claims made in the November 2011 issue of The Watchtower.
A day for a year or a year for a day.....all in all, what does it care, people still suffer, get hurt, abused, raped, shot or starve...... despite their prayers.
scholar, since your quite the expert on God's people being in captivity, can you explain Joel 3:1,2?
[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]
Did Jehovah already collect together the nations down on the low plain to put himself on judgment with them or is this still a future fulfillment?
If it is a future fulfillment, who are the captive ones (God's people) that are brought back at that time?
Are God's people currently captive or are they yet to go into this captivity?
[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]
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[12-1-61 WT p.714 par. 8 – The worst plague of locusts and worms ever foretold to come was that one of which Jehovah’s prophet Joel gave forewarning. That plague was not threatened by Jehovah God without a just cause occasioned by his people. That is why in Joel’s prophecy Jehovah presents himself as at war with his own people. Here let Christendom who today claims to be God’s people take serious notice!]
Ann has also written quite a long, but excellent paper under this Title :
"Fact-checking ‘VAT4956.com’ Do all 13 sets of lunar positions on VAT 4956 fit the year 588/7 BCE? © Ann O’Maly, October 2020".
It is downloadable, and refutes Furulli too ! Well worth a read !
The VAT4956.Com website says that "due to recent discoveries this website is restricted to members only."
I was curious what recent discoveries are being referred to? Anybody know what's up?
And thanks for the PDF link Jeffro.
Regarding Ann O'Maly's paper 'Fact-checking 'VAT4956.com' I sent a copy to Rolf Furuli receiving his reply by email this morning for his comment and it is just as I always suspected that the differences between experts regarding this tablet amounts to Methodology and the use of different tools or resources. Furuli offers the following comment on O' Maly's paper:
ASTRO PROGRAMS: Furuli, WT author for the Watchtower, Nov.1, 2011 and O' Maly use different astro-programs. Furuli's use of The SkyX is the preferred choice by professional astronomers in the USA. O'Maly uses the Cartes du Ciel 4.2.1 . Furuli comments on this that "For positions in the sixth century BCE, there can be a difference of a half degree, or in some instances even more between different astro-programs".
THE CALCULATED POSITIONS: O'Maly used a hypothesis based on a ellipitical coordinate system as explained on page 2 in her paper. Contrariwise, Furuli used no a system but rather what an observer/ Babylonian scribes saw when looking at the sky on a certain date or putting it simply bt direct observation whereupon he chose to use the Sky x program.
Furuli notes that he had assisted the brother in the Writing Department who wrote the two articles on Chronology with ongoing discussions and the exchanging of drafts for two years prior to the publishing of the two articles. During that period Furuli asked him to find two Witnesses with astronomical knowledge who could test his astro calculations. Furuli met one of the two researchers 15 years ago who had given a lecture at an international astronomical congress in Oslo, Norway. Furuli comments that the findings of these two matched exactly his findings with the only difference of a few minutes in some places.
Furuli further comments that he does not endorse the hypothesis that the Babylonian scribes used the elliptic system as does o' Maly and others but he believes that the calculations of the scribes were not theoretical but based on historical data. The same celestial phenomena would occur at the same intervals, for example, the 18 year cycle of the Moon, such periodic phenomena were the basis for their calculations.
Furuli also advises readers that in his 2nd edn of his Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology all the coordinates of each of these positions namely the 13 lunar sets is given so one could compare O'Maly's positions with his by means of the SkyX program using the coordinates in each case and see which position is correct.
So we have different experts who have different opinions based on their own hypotheses and different methodologies.
scholar JW
" So we have different experts who have different opinions based on their own hypotheses and different methodologies."
This is of course the usual state of things in Science, and History Studies of course. So it means you have to sensibly make a choice, as even a consensus of experts can be wrong.
What is not in doubt is the testimony of the heavens, in the form of eclipses, in this case Lunar eclipses.
Four Eclipses are of interest to us around the period in question, 19th March 721, 8th march 720, 1st September 720 and 22 April 621.
As we know when in the reign of the relevant king these occurred, other events can be fixed with certitude from those dates.
All of this debate on this Thread though somewhat obscures the fact that regardless of when events in the distant past actually occurred, there is no way to prove that 1914 C.E features in Bible prophecy.
The JW Org constantly harping on about the nearness of Armageddon, and that we are in the Biblical "End Time" has no support in Astronomy, History or Scripture.
Scholar, regarding this quote, you mention that there may be inconsistencies of up to half a degree, or more, in regards to astronomical positions between different software programs. I'm unsure if you are referring to the lunar positions only, or all the positions of celestial bodies mentioned on the tablet.
Once again, its only the WT that seeks to deceive its readers into thinking that the best evidence is related to the lunar observations.
Here are 2 lines of VAT4956:
Line 2: Saturn was in front of the Swallow.
Line 9: Saturn was in front of the Swallow.
If I am reading the tablet right, the time between the observance of Saturn in the first line and the second is about 28 days. So , for weeks, Saturn was roughly in front, or to the east, of the Swallow constellation
This is all the information that anyone that knows anything about astronomy needs. A difference in half a degree here or there is totally inconsequential. In fact, any one of these 2 observations are enough to pinpoint the year.
Saturn takes 29 years to complete its orbit around the Sun and reappear in the same place. The difference between 568 and 588, as argued is only 20 years.
If the location of Saturn in regard to the Swallow matches for 567/8,then it will not match for 588- it won't even be close. 588 is incorrect, everyone, except the WT knows it.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they know it too.
