Religious convictions are usually diverse from truth and intellectual honesty.
So arguing with someone who wants to uphold their religious convictions is like talking to a brick wall.
Thats also why so many people leave the JW religion.
Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?
by Vanderhoven7 150 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Rocketman123
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johnamos
Religious convictions are usually diverse from truth and intellectual honesty.So arguing with someone who wants to uphold their religious convictions is like talking to a brick wall.
This is why I feel Bobcat has the best response ever:
'Understood.'
:)
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johnamos
You've put yourself on the horns of a dilemma: Either the Bible contradicts itself, or the WT is incorrect - which do you choose?
[12-1-00 WT– Whatever authority people may arrogate to themselves, you do not have to accept their conclusions if they contradict God, ignore his Word, and violate common sense. In the final analysis, the wise course is always to “let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.” —Romans 3:4.]
[6-1-86 WT– To acquire a complete heart, we must be prepared emotionally to set aside preconceived opinions, willing to let God be found true even if it does demolish some of our pet ideas or cherished doctrinal views. (Romans 3:4)]
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johnamos
"Yes, Jerimiah referred to seventy years of servitude, not equated to the desolation, and yes, he said plainly that it applied to many nations (plural), and yes he explicitly stated that the seventy years would end
[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes,]
[Jeremiah 25: 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.12 ‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah,]
[Daniel 5:26 “This is the interpretation of the words: MEʹNE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end.]
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 – “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
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Vanderhoven7
Wow! Just checked. Did this thread take off or what. Must be a few chronology buffs around. Time to catch up.
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Jeffro
Unlike Furuli, I’ve independently arrived at the same conclusions as the best scholarship. Furuli is a pariah as far as his JW apologetics go.
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Nonsense. Furuli carried out independent research and has always shown to be an independent thinker and scholar right from the days of his first published work. Further, your claim to have arrived independently as the best scholarship amounts to the simple fact that you were either directly or indirectly influnence by Carl Jonsson's GTR. Further, the so-called best scholarship is based on 'higher criticism and lacks any consensus in matters of Chronology.
scholar JW
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projecthydra
“In his 19th year, Nebuchadnezzar burnt down Jerusalem”. According to “Dating the fall ofBabylon and Ur thanks to Astronomical Events” by Gérard Gertoux and published by Cornwell University, his 19th year was 586 B.C.E.
The seventy years [in Jeremiah 29:10 & Jeremiah 25:11] refer primarily to the time of Babylonian world dominion and not to the time of the exile, as is often carelessly supposed.” (N. Gottwald, All the Kingdoms of the Earth, New York, Evanston, London: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1964, pp. 265, 266)
“and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years”. The 70 years here and in 29: 10 refer not to the length of Judah's exile or to "Jerusalem's desolations" but to Babylon's tenure as a world power (Duhm). As far as Babylon's tenure as a world power is concerned, 70 years turned out to be a good approximation: “From the fall of Nineveh (612 B.C.) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus (539 B.C.) was 73 years; from the Battle of Carchemish (605 B.C.– Nebuchadrezzar‟s first year; cf. 25:1) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus (539 B.C.) was 66 years; and from the actual end of the Assyrian Empire (609/8 B.C.) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus and the return of the exiles (539 B.C.) was almost precisely 70 years.” (Vol. II, Doubleday, 2004, pp. 249, 250)
Jeremiah 29:10 – “When Babylon has completed seventy years before me. I.e., when Babylon has served Yahweh as a world power for 70 years. The specified period, which is a round number and no more, refers neither to Judah's exile in Babylon nor to Jerusalem's uninhabitation, both of which were considerably shorter (see Note for 2 5: I I)…. Jeremiah's opponents were saying that Judah's exile would be brief; Jeremiah was saying it would be long. Jeremiah, after all, during this same period was delivering oracles of judgment against Babylon (51:59-64). Calvin is impressed here that God's thoughts are not always hidden: Babylon's status as a world power, says God quite openly, will be ended after 70 years.. (Vol. II, Doubleday, 2004, pp. 353)
The Bible nowhere states that the Jewish exile lasted for 70 years. Jeremiah clearly states that the 70 years would be a period of Babylonian rule (“seventy years for Babylon”), when the nations in the Near East would “serve the king of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 29:10; 25:11) This servitude ended in 539 BCE, when the king of Babylon was punished. This would take place after the 70 years had ended. (Jeremiah 25:12)As long as the Watchtower apologists persist in denying this, they are forced to misrepresent, misapply, and twist the Bible. By their insistence on the 607 BCE date, they have created an artificial conflict between the Bible and the secular sources that does not exist, and never has existed. Their claim to be trusting the Bible, when they are just trusting in a chronological calculation that conflicts both with the Bible and the historical evidence, is nothing but hypocrisy.
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projecthydra
In his 19th year, Nebuchadnezzar burnt down Jerusalem”. According to “Dating the fall ofBabylon and Ur thanks to Astronomical Events” by Gérard Gertoux and published by Cornwell University, his 19th year was 586 B.C.E.
The seventy years [in Jeremiah 29:10 & Jeremiah 25:11] refer primarily to the time of Babylonian world dominion and not to the time of the exile, as is often carelessly supposed.” (N. Gottwald, All the Kingdoms of the Earth, New York, Evanston, London: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1964, pp. 265, 266)
“and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years”. The 70 years here and in 29: 10 refer not to the length of Judah's exile or to "Jerusalem's desolations" but to Babylon's tenure as a world power (Duhm). As far as Babylon's tenure as a world power is concerned, 70 years turned out to be a good approximation: “From the fall of Nineveh (612 B.C.) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus (539 B.C.) was 73 years; from the Battle of Carchemish (605 B.C.– Nebuchadrezzar‟s first year; cf. 25:1) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus (539 B.C.) was 66 years; and from the actual end of the Assyrian Empire (609/8 B.C.) to Babylon‟s capture by Cyrus and the return of the exiles (539 B.C.) was almost precisely 70 years.” (Vol. II, Doubleday, 2004, pp. 249, 250)
Jeremiah 29:10 – “When Babylon has completed seventy years before me. I.e., when Babylon has served Yahweh as a world power for 70 years. The specified period, which is a round number and no more, refers neither to Judah's exile in Babylon nor to Jerusalem's uninhabitation, both of which were considerably shorter (see Note for 2 5: I I)…. Jeremiah's opponents were saying that Judah's exile would be brief; Jeremiah was saying it would be long. Jeremiah, after all, during this same period was delivering oracles of judgment against Babylon (51:59-64). Calvin is impressed here that God's thoughts are not always hidden: Babylon's status as a world power, says God quite openly, will be ended after 70 years.. (Vol. II, Doubleday, 2004, pp. 353)
The Bible nowhere states that the Jewish exile lasted for 70 years. Jeremiah clearly states that the 70 years would be a period of Babylonian rule (“seventy years for Babylon”), when the nations in the Near East would “serve the king of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 29:10; 25:11) This servitude ended in 539 BCE, when the king of Babylon was punished. This would take place after the 70 years had ended. (Jeremiah 25:12The Bible quite explicitly refers to the 70 years as an Exile, a period under Babbylonish domination during which the land was desolated. These three things are simple facts all confirmed by Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra who all explained this most significant event in OT history. Scholars even today cannot agree as to a sole interpretation of the 70 years even to its nature and chronology as shown by the sources you have quoted for it does come down to paying close attention to God's word and being faithful to it.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
scholar:
Furuli carried out independent research and has always shown to be an independent thinker and scholar right from the days of his first published work.
He’s certainly an ‘independent thinker’ as far as scholarly consensus goes. 🤣 But it’s blatantly obvious that his efforts were targeted at ‘affirming’ JW interpretations. All those pesky verses at just the wrong places that need novel explanations. 🤣
Further, your claim to have arrived independently as the best scholarship amounts to the simple fact that you were either directly or indirectly influnence by Carl Jonsson's GTR.
Fallacy: argument from incredulity. As much as it pains you to realise that multiple people can independently arrive at the same factual conclusionr from the information in the Bible, I hadn’t even heard of Jonsson, his book, or this forum, or even any other secular arguments about the period when I first thoroughly debunked the JW 607 doctrine.
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johnamos
[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes,]
[Jeremiah 25: 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.12 ‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah,]
[Daniel 5:26 “This is the interpretation of the words: MEʹNE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end.]
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 – “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
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The fact is simply that the 70 years ended not with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but only with the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE with the ist year of Cyrus. as Ezra states in 2 Chron.36:22 and Daniel also in Daniel 9:1-2 describes the 70 years yet to be fulfilled post 539 BCE with Darius' first year.
scholar JW