by Disillusioned JW 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The problem with some people is that they are looking for help and assistance in their problematic sociological lives, such as help in their marriages, problems with their children and problems they may hold within themselves and they believe acquired spirituality is the cure or the answer..
You cant get that from scientifically acquired knowledge no matter how much rational, intellectually honest and practical sense it makes.
The Watchtower twists the Apostles response to Jesus from "Whom else would we go" to "Where else." This changes the meaning from being a follower of Jesus to changing religions.
Getting to the question "Why not atheistic/philosophical scientific naturalism" I have found some things in my studies.
As a born in Jehovah's Witness I remember studying the Live Forever book with my dad prior to baptism. One of the things the Watchtower was still doing at this time was attacking other religions and beliefs. That is to say, the Watchtower publications didn't just show their reasons for why they think they are correct, but also deconstructed other faiths in regards to reasons they are "false". A problem I would find out later in life is that the Watchtower notoriously misquotes, takes quotes out of context, and generally provides misinformation/inaccurate information about other belief systems.
Another thing I found is that, because of the above, I found that ex-Witness tend to become atheistic as a result of this. Since the Watchtower seemed to do such a good job disproving all other religions and now that a Witness comes to find out the Watchtower is also false, the next natural step is become an atheist. I know I did, but I changed as I grew in knowledge.
I have studied human brain function and psychology. One noticeable thing is that the human brain is geared for religion. Even atheism tends to be religious. Consider the idea that "there is no supernatural". Really? How do we know. Rather, the claim is made by persons who believe that there is a scientific and perfectly rational answer for everything. That is to say, "I have faith that one day there will be a perfectly ration and scientific answer for the unexplained." Faith is the cornerstone of religion.
I am not saying there is a god nor do I believe the Bible is the answer. I have found that there are religions that seemed to line up with what science is now just discovering about the human mind and the universe. I recommend having a beginners mind set - I know nothing. True faith is letting go of belief and accepting truth as it manifests.
Have any of you ever wondered if some people might have some paranormal ability, such as telepathy? I sometimes wonder about that (but from a non-supernaturalistic perspective). I wonder if some very young children have such powers but later loose them if their parents tell them they are merely imagining things, or if they tell them to stop what they are doing - saying the demons are interacting with them. Science has shown that people loose certain brain abilities at a young age if they don't use those abilities/functions at young age. For example people born blind won't be able to consciously see as an adult (though they might experience what is called "blind sight"), after the problem which caused the blindness is corrected after a certain age. That is because the brain broke the initial neural connections that had been made for processing imagines from the eyes, if the brain's optical center hadn't received input. Likewise, experiments with new born cats raised in environments with no vertical objects/lines later don't see them which such objects are placed into their environment. For dc see the following:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150925-blindsight-the-strangest-form-of-consciousness
Cats and Vision: is vision acquired or innate?
I am reminded of the fictional TV episode of "Twilight Zone" called "Mute". It left a strong impact on my imagination. If you haven't seen it I encourage you to do so, then go the web page at https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/telepathic-five-year-old-studied-6781860 and read its article and watch its video.
The WT in a video at https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/good-news-from-god/draw-close-to-god/video-does-god-listen-hear-prayer/ implies (in the images shown in the video in conjunction with the spoken words of the video) that Jehovah can hear silent prayers because, according to the WT, he can see our neural circuitry and because he designed and made our brains. I don't believe Jehovah exists, but hypothetically if he exists then the argument given has some logic to it. It is like how a human designer of a computer circuit and of computer software can monitor the activity within the computer and determine what instructions it is processing at a given moment.
An interesting Thread, and some thoughts new to me, and some sources of info , Thanks Dissy!
An analogy I thought of to answer the original "But where shall we go to ? " is the following, if you learned that the water you were drinking was badly polluted, where would you go to ?".
I think this could spark valuable discussion with a JW, they have tacitly acknowledged that their "source" is somewhat polluted by their question. We can show them how to determine if a source is unpolluted.
They have to use the method of finding Evidence and Facts for what they are about to trust is unpolluted truth, Evidence and Facts that will withstand any scrutiny. Depending upon their ability, we may have to show them how to do that, even some "Fact Checking" Sites are polluted, what appear to be valid Academic Documents and Research are not, and many arguments presented by "Believers" are specious etc etc.
The 1974 WT book called Is This Life all there is? on page 68 quotes a book by Corliss Lamont called The Illusion of Immortality. An edition (from 1936) of that book can be read online at https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.222482 . I invite JWs and other Christians to have a look at that book.
Corliss was a socialist who wrote literature promoting socialism and who successfully resisted McCarthy and the C.I.A. He was also convinced of evolution, was a Humanist, and he wrote the book called Humanism As A Philosophy (later called The Philosophy of Humanism). The Second Edition of that book, bearing the copyright date of 1949, can be read at https://archive.org/details/humanismasphilos00lamo . I invite JWs and other Christians to read that book - much of what it says is very good. It makes a good case for a number of the ideas of Humanism. In his book he says that the type of Humanism he writes about has "eight central propositions". Regarding them he says the following:
First, Humanism believes in a naturalistic cosmology or metaphysics or attitude toward the universe that rules out all forms of the supernatural and that regards Nature as the totality of being and as a constantly chang- ing system of events which exists independently of any mind or consciousness. Second, Humanism, drawing especially upon the proven facts of science, believes that man is an evolutionary prod- uct of this great Nature of which he is part and that he
is an inseparable unity of body and personality having no individual survival beyond death. Third, Humanism believes that human thinking is as natural as walking or breathing, that it is indivisibly conjoined with the functioning of the brain, and that ideas, far from existing independently in some separate realm, arise and have reality only when a complex liv- ing organism such as man is interacting with its environ- ment and is intellectually active. Fourth, Humanism believes that man has the power and potentiality of solving his own problems successfully, relying primarily on reason and scientific method to do so and to enlarge continually his knowledge of the truth.
Fifth, Humanism believes, in opposition to all theories of universal predestination, determinism or fatalism, that human beings possess true freedom of creative action and are, within reasonable limits, the masters of their own destiny. Sixth, Humanism believes in an ethics or morality that grounds all human values in this-earthly experiences and relationships; and that holds as its highest loyalty the this-worldly happiness, freedom and progress — eco- nomic, cultural and ethical — of all mankind, irrespec- tive of nation, race or religion. Seventh, Humanism believes in the widest possible development of art and of the awareness of beauty, in- cluding the appreciation of external Nature, so that the aesthetic experience may become a pervasive reality in the life of men.
Eighth, Humanism believes in a far-reaching social program that stands for the establishment throughout the world of democracy and peace on the foundations of a flourishing and cooperative economic order, both national and international.
These eight points embody Humanism in what I be- lieve is its most acceptable modem form. This philosophy can be more explicitly characterized as scientific Human- ism, secular Humanism, naturalistic Humanism or dem- ocratic Humanism, depending on the emphasis that one wishes to give. Whatever it be called. Humanism is the viewpoint that men have but one life to lead and should make the most of it in terms of creative work and hap- piness; that human happiness is its own justification and requires no sanction or support from supernatural sources; that in any case the supernatural, usually conceived of in the form of heavenly gods or immortal heavens, does not exist; and that human beings, using their own intel- ligence and cooperating liberally with one another, can build an enduring citadel of peace and beauty upon this earth.
See also https://www.corliss-lamont.org/hsmny/whatishumanism.htm which says:
"Ninth, Humanism believes in the complete social implementation of reason and scientific method; and thereby in democratic procedures, and parliamentary government, with full freedom of expression and civil liberties, throughout all areas of economic, political, and cultural life.
Tenth, Humanism,
in accordance with scientific method, believes in the unending
questioning of basic assumptions and convictions, including its own.
Humanism is not a new dogma, but is a developing philosophy ever open to
experimental testing, newly discovered facts, and more rigorous
reasoning.
Human beings, using their own intelligence and cooperating liberally
with one another, can build an enduring citadel of peace and beauty upon
this earth.
—Corliss Lamont, from The Philosophy of Humanism, 1990"
See also https://www.ihumanism.org/2012/05/a-humanist-you-should-know-corliss-lamont.html which has an article called "A Humanist You Should Know: Corliss Lamont".
If one looks up the publications quoted in the WT books, and looks for other literature published by those authors (especially authors who are convinced of evolution and who do not believe in personal god or even the supernatural), one can learn many great and wondrous things and discover great truths.
People, if you are looking for an ideology to move to, explore scientific naturalism (a key component of secular humanism). You can discover real truth to replace the falsely called truth of the WT/JW religion.
Dear Disilllusion,
I read your response and appreciate what you said in all seriousness. Then I reread it and had to laugh a bit, you were at one time a jw? if so, then you in all likelihood went door to door trying to convince people that the jw's were in fact the one true religion, blah, blah, blah...... don't you see? you are still at it, trying to convince people there is no god. Why do you care if one believes or not? I mean no offense at all, I am truly curious as to why you feel the need to change peoples minds about anything?
I do wish you well on your journey. Who knows? you may one day move on from humanism to something else, good to keep an open mind.
Hi carla. Yes I am still 'at it' in regards to trying to convince people of that which I (at the moment at least) believe/think/know is true. Truth is very important to me. I want human society to embrace truth, to leave behind superstitions, and to move forward. Those are some of my values. I had those values as a JW and I have them now. I even went door-to-door one day in my neighbor to promote atheism and naturalism to people. On another day I set up a display of atheistic books about 20 feet away from where JWs had their witnessing carts set up.
When I was a JW I witnessed begrudgingly out of a sense of duty. But the pro-atheism witnessing I do now I do so due to strong compelling desire and due to strong conviction. That is partly because what I have now was chosen freely by me - without psychological pressure or manipulation - and because I perceive the harm the WT religion, and belief in supernaturalism in general, has done. I also imagine how prosperous human society would be today if it had given up supernaturalism and superstition 1,000 years ago or even 300 years ago. Do you see now why I care if people believe or not?
It should be kept in mind though that I become a JW in large part because I was raised from infancy in the JW religion by my JW parents and by my mother's JW parents. But even then, when I was contemplating getting baptized as a JW I had serious doubts about the religion (including its teaching that biological evolution is false). If only back then I had enough ever read atheistic and freethinker literature, I would very likely had never become baptized as a JW. The expectations of the JW religion (such as the expectation during JW meetings to give answers that are in agreement with JW teachings) hindered me from properly questioning and critiquing the religion. I got baptized at age 15. If I had first learned of the religion after age 18 I probably would never had become a JW.
But, regarding Naturalism and Humanism I question them and don't force myself to accept all of their ideas. I try to follow the evidence to wherever it leads. I challenge my ideas/beliefs and test them, from time to time. I only accept those ideas of Naturalism and Humanism that seem correct to me. For example, I ponder the implications of (and the purported proof of) whether or not our universe (as well as space and time) truly had a beginning.
Though I agree with many elements of Humanism (and there are many competing definitions of Humanism given by various Humanists) I don't agree with all of the ideas of Humanism. I don't feel comfortable with some of the values of the most common forms of Humanism (including the idea of abortions of human embryos and fetuses being considered a moral right and even a good thing). Around the year 2010 I started calling myself a Humanist, but a few years ago I stopped identifying myself by the label of Humanist. I don't fully agree with some of the political views that are bundled in various concepts of Secular Humanism. In the year 2009 (or 2010) I started identifying myself as a Naturalist and non-theist, and in 2010 (or 2011) I also identified myself as an atheist (a positive/strong atheist, not merely the agnostic type) and I have continued to identify as a Naturalist, a non-theist, and an atheist.
The idea of Naturalism is less complicated than that of Humanism and as a result I relate more to Naturalism than to Humanism. I do not belong to any atheist, Naturalist or Humanist organization, though I have some association with some organizations of them. [But for politically practical reasons I do currently belong to a political party.] Thomas Paine said regarding himself the following: "My own mind is my own church." I say that "I have no church and no religion. My mind is my own belief-system."
In my prior post when I said "... in my neighbor to promote ..." I meant to say '... in my neighborhood to promote...". Where I said "If only back then I had enough ever read atheistic and freethinker literature, I would very likely had never become baptized as a JW" I meant to say 'If only back then I had enough nerve to read atheistic and freethinker literature, I would very likely had never become baptized as a JW".
carla, I noticed you said "you are still at it, trying to convince people there is no god." If by that statement you are saying that when I was a JW I was trying to convince people there is no god, then you are mistaken. JWs believe that Jehovah God exists, though they don't believe that God is a Trinity. While I was a JW I sometimes tried to convince people that the Trinity doctrine is false, but while I was I JW (and hence a God-believer) I did not try to convince people there is no god/God. Jehovah's Witnesses bear witness about Jehovah being God and the JWs teach that Jehovah is the one true God (though they also admit that according to the Bible Jesus is a god in some sense of the word 'god')..
