Simple Question Re 1914 (page 38)

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Jeffo, thanks for informing me that the WT's idea that the Jews were especially expecting a Messiah around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel comes from a Christian tradition. Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

Christians are the only ones who make the claim.

In the first century, the Jews were under Roman rule and there were Jewish groups that expected the 'messiah' to liberate the Jews, but there was no specific expectation he would appear in 30 CE (though Jesus' ministry as described in the Bible would have begun in 26 CE). And Jesus didn't fill the role of what the Jews generally expected (or expect) of the 'messiah' anyway.

Because the Jews viewed (and view) Daniel among the Writings rather than the Prophets, they weren't generally looking to Daniel to point to the arrival of the 'messiah'. Of course that doesn't mean that no Jews at all interpreted Daniel that way, though there is no indication that they specifically made any such claims before '30' CE (and the arithmetic doesn't work for the correct year, 26 CE, anway; and that's before you get to the problem that Daniel doesn't say the 'messiah' would be 'cut off' at 'the half of the week' as claimed by JWs and similar Christian denominations, but rather only after the '62 weeks' when those denominations say is when he first appeared). There was a sect of Judaism that sprung up in the mid-first century that accepted Jesus as the Jewish messiah, with a post hoc rationalisation (i.e. the 'ransom') for why he died rather than liberating the Jews from the Romans. That group significantly diverged from the beliefs of Judaism due to Roman influence. Today, we know it as Christianity.

The only references to Daniel in the NT were written not only decades after Jesus' death but also after the Jewish revolt in 66 CE, and the earliest NT books (i.e. Paul's writings) give almost no biographical details of Jesus at all let alone that they were expecting Jesus right when he appeared.

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

https://www.academia.edu/24822317/IS_DANIELS_SEVENTY_WEEKS_PROPHECY_MESSIANIC_PART_1

scholar

Jeffro

2:32, 39: in JW dogma, the 'copper kingdom' (incorrectly) includes the Macedonian and Seleucid periods up until 30 BCE (in reality, verses 33 and 41-43 cover the period from Alexander until Antiochus I

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Dan.2::23,29 refers to the Grecian World Power and not to the Seleucid Kingdom according to WT scholarship. The duration from 331 BCE to 30 BCE and in its latter days was divided up into four kingdoms which included the Seleucid Kingdom. Your claim that vss. 33; 41-43 covers the period from Alexander to Antiochus IV is your opinion based on no evidence for it is only in Dan 11:5-19 that we have a full prophetic description of the Seleucid Period;

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7:6: the four wings of the leopard represent Alexander's divided kingdom, two of which are the Ptolemies and Seleucids (in reality verses 6-8, 19-22 and 23-25 refer to the period from Alexander through to Antiochus IV

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The four-winged leopard-like beast that represents according to or interpretation of WT scholarship is the Grecian line of rulers beginning with Alexander eventually being divided up into four kingdoms which included Seleucus Nicator who began the Seleucid Dynasty. Thus the focus of this beast is the dynastic rulers rather than the dynastic period that followed which is specifically described later on in Dan.11:5-19 only. Your statement that vss. 6-8; 19-22; 23-25 refers to the period from Alexander to Antiochus IV is simply opinion based again on no facts whatsoever. for that fourth beast herein described refers to the next World Power, Rome according to the interpretation from WT scholarship.

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8:8, 22: as with chapter 7, the 'great horn that was broken into four' depicts Alexander's divided kingdom including the Seleucids and Ptolemies (in reality, verses 8-12 and 22-25 cover this period

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, Dan.8:8, 22 refers to the King of Greece - Alexander as vs.21 clearly states and the dividing up of that kingdom into four parts included again the Seleucid Dynasty which replicates the leopard-like beats in the previous chapter.

In short, the earlier references to the Seleucid King and the Seleucid Period/Kingdom are meagre, fitting well with the overall prophecy of successive kingdoms and World Powers from the 6th century with only a brief description of the Seleucids in the Dan 11:5-19. There is absolutely nothing in Daniel to support a 2nd-century composition as shown by WT scholarship along with SDA scholarship. You have failed to provide a single fact to support your hypothesis!!

scholar JW

Jeffro

'scholar':

WT scholarship

🤣

Dan.2::23,29 refers to the Grecian World Power and not to the Seleucid Kingdom according to WT scholarship. The duration from 331 BCE to 30 BCE and in its latter days was divided up into four kingdoms which included the Seleucid Kingdom.

Ha ha. You can't even get your own beliefs right (setting aside the fact that Daniel 2:23, 29 are the wrong verses as well, but I provided the right ones, 32 & 39). Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, pages 54-55:

The copperlike world power continued only until 30 B.C.E. when the last of these four kingdoms—the Ptolemaic dynasty ruling in Egypt—finally fell to Rome.

Similarly, the Seleucid period is indeed included in the JW interpretations of the corresponding elements in chapter 7 & 8.

Your claim that vss. 33; 41-43 covers the period from Alexander to Antiochus IV is your opinion based on no evidence

Whilst I did indeed independently arrive at the correct time period for these verses, it is also the mainstream scholarly consensus, so claiming it is just ‘my opinion’ is irrelevant and misleading ad hominem.

Jeffro

There is absolutely nothing in Daniel to support a 2nd-century composition

Only if you pretend that the obvious references to the Seleucid period are magical 🤦‍♂️

WT scholarship along with SDA scholarship.

I hope you don’t think that’s a coincidence 😂 Adventist groups have Adventist beliefs. Wow. Amazing. 😂

Fisherman

Scholar

Mathew 13:11. Also, the Bible is written in a form that leaves it up to the reader to conclude for himself what he chooses to believe. No point in arguing.

scholar

Jeffro

Ha ha. You can't even get your own beliefs right (setting aside the fact that Daniel 2:23, 29 are the wrong verses as well, but I provided the right ones, 32 & 39). Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, pages 54-55:

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Ha Ha. It is just a typo. Nothing has changed as my comment remains sound harmonizing with the cited pages in our commentary on Daniel. which its entire content debunks your opinion.

scholar JW

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

It is just a typo. Nothing has changed as my comment remains sound

No, doofus. Despite your attempt to just focus on the incidental typo, the WT book explicitly says the copper kingdom includes the Seleucid period right up until 30 BCE 🤦‍♂️

scholar

Jeffro

Similarly, the Seleucid period is indeed included in the JW interpretations of the corresponding elements in chapter 7 & 8.

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These Seleucid elements are merely consequential, a small part of the main application to the major world powers - the fourth beast in ch.7 and the male goat in ch.8.

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Whilst I did indeed independently arrive at the correct time period for these verses, it is also the mainstream scholarly consensus, so claiming it is just ‘my opinion’ is irrelevant and misleading ad hominem.

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Well if your opinion is truly based on your own independent research then you should be able to provide definitive reasons for your opinion as so far you have failed to do. The problem that you have is proving that Daniel was of late composition.

scholar JW

scholar

Jeffro

No, doofus. Despite your attempt to just focus on the incidental typo, the WT book explicitly says the copper kingdom includes the Seleucid period right up until 30 BCE 🤦‍♂️

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The WT interpretation in the publication addresses the matter quite clearly showing where the Seleucid period fits in Daniel's worldview and that is only fully expressed in the fifteen verses in the 11 th chapter only.

scholar JW

Simple Question Re 1914

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