Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • waton
    waton
    --the idea that the past still exists, --- the idea that the past still exists-- DJW

    Time as such always existed, stretching into the eternal past, and already extends into the eternal future, because

    Energy can not be created or be destroyed, and it obviously needs time to exist in, eternally. but, we have travelled from our past into the present, toward our future time, so,

    our past does not exist anymore nor does our particular future yet either. Lots of light and sound is still on the way from the past though, and we will continue to receive it from the now empty past, some of it 13 billion years old, -- all from an now empty past.

    As for the eternal ESP domain, wait for a message.

    enJoy.


  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    scholar, I agree with you than some of Jeffro's posts contain comments which are nick picking - 'splitting hairs'. I notice that multiple times he said the same assertion, in an apparent effort to convince readers of the assertion, yet has provided little reasoning and little evidence in support of his oft repeated assertion.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Regarding the idea of the past (namely, past events) still being in existence according to Einstein, see https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/12/28/einstein-believed-in-a-theory-of-spacetime-that-can-help-people-cope-with-loss/?sh=497b970e55d2 . There it says in part the following.

    'Einstein did not reject the existence of time. Instead, he rejected the distinction between past, present, and future. This may seem like a minor difference, but it is not.

    In this passage Einstein is referring to the “block universe” conception of spacetime. It’s hardly surprising that he accepted it, since although it came from the work of others (principally from Hermann Minkowski, one of Einstein’s teachers) it is the framework in which his own theories of special and general relativity are most naturally expressed.

    The block-universe view of physical reality contains time, but in a way remarkably different to our usual conception. It presents a four-dimensional view in which all events across time and space are on an equal ontological footing, with no sense in which present events are judged more “real” or “actual” than past or future ones. It is also very difficult to recover any meaningful sense in which time “flows”.'


    'Relativity merges space and time into a single fourth-dimensional structure known as spacetime. We should think of time the same way we think of space; just as all of space exists outside of our world and any point within space can be described by coordinates, all of time exists as well and any events that have happened or will happen already exist, described by their own coordinates within the universe. And the same way all coordinates in space are valid, all coordinates (or events) in time are valid as well, meaning that there should be no such distinctions as “past”, “present,” or “future”. The universe and life within it is not an organic thing that’s constantly changing and morphing. Instead it’s like a video where the present moment is merely a frame within that video. And that video, had we access to it, would reveal every event to ever take place in our universe, from beginning to end. This cosmos is known as the “block universe”, a place where change isn’t real and there’s nothing special about the present moment. Considering this on a philosophical scale brings into question the idea of free will.'
  • waton
    waton
    any point within space can be described by coordinates, all of time exists as well and any events that have happened or will happen already exist, described by their own coordinates within the universe

    DJW, yes, for example I expect to be in upstate NY on April8 2024, at 3 pm, together with the shadow of the Moon, but do you believe that all that already exists?

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    scholar

    What is your position on Daniel? Was it composed in the 6th century or 2nd century BC?

    Sorry, my friend, I missed this earlier, I was busy conducting a bible study, yep, good old Anglican style ! 🙂

    • I accept that this is a contested question.
    • I also accept that Jews themselves have held the book of Daniel to be part of their canon.
    • I accept the book of Daniel to be part of God’s inspired word to humankind.

    From both my JW background and Moore exposure I see that God’s sovereignty over human affairs is the theme of the book of Daniel and the record of the Babylonian kingdom being replaced by the Persian, in turn the Greek then the Roman Empire is all described, but finally God’s eternal kingdom.

    It all seems simple really compared with the convoluted (isn’t it always?) theology of the WT.

    I ‘hear’ many of the points that you and others are posting on this thread but it ultimately comes down to whether we want to come ‘under the word’ or ‘over it’.

    From there it’s a matter of interpretation but……

    …….you must admit that the W/T’s writings have been well short of the plausible.

    Come on, do you truly believe all that Anglo-America stuff?

    Anyway, how’s the weather up there? It’s pretty chilly down here.

    Cheers,

    Ozzie 🍷

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Disillusioned JW:

    I notice that multiple times he said the same assertion, in an apparent effort to convince readers of the assertion, yet has provided little reasoning and little evidence in support of his oft repeated assertion.

    I don’t know why you expect me to provide you with all the answers. I’m not here to spoon feed people nor to garner followers, nor to keep repeating information that has been posted on here for years. I have already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread, and the mainstream view also isn’t some national secret, yet you seem more focused on Christian commentaries as your source. Perhaps try Wikipedia as a starting point to find citations to scholarly sources.

    If you are willing to defer to supernatural ‘explanations’ for the author of Daniel supposedly having access to future events, it is preposterous that you would expect detailed evidence from me for ‘daring’ to suggest the plainly reasonable conclusion that the author of Daniel wrote about things that had already happened but used a setting of the Neo-Babylonian period as a metaphor for events up to and including the Seleucid period.

    Your ‘reasoning’ is a bit like when creationists expect nonbelievers to explain exactly how life originated rather than just offering possibilities, and then counter with completely unverifiable superstitious claims as their alternative ‘explanation’.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Jeffro I state the following to you.

    Nearly all of the Bible commentaries I have are ones I obtained while I was still a JW (though after I began greatly questioning WT teachings on the Bible. I refer to commentaries on the Bible to discover the meaning that the writers of the Bible meant to convey in what they wrote in the Bible. I want to know what the Bible's intended meaning is for each verse I am studying. After I discern that meaning I then ask myself if the Bible writers are correct in what they said, and at that stage I then investigate what atheistic scholars and nonreligious scientists and secular historians say on those topics. I don't look for flaws in a book before I learn what the book is trying to convey. If I mentally attack a book by looking for flaws in the book before understanding the book, I will likely in many cases be attacking a straw man idea of the book. Erecting a straw man argument to attack and idea is a logical fallacy and I wish to avoid making logical fallacies. I also refer to commentaries on the Bible verses because Bible commentaries are all about explaining Bible verses mean. Granted Bible commentaries are primarily written by people who believe in the Bible to at least some degree, and the vast majority of the commentaries I find are Christian ones (and most of those are Protestant ones, while some are ecumenical ones). It would be helpful if some atheistic scholars who write about Bible topics were to do so in the form of a commentary on the Bible so that people could more easily find the information. At least Isaac Asimov wrote a commentary on the Bible, but in it he says very little about the Seleucid period. His commentary doesn't cover the book of Daniel (or any biblical book) on a verse by verse basis for the entire book. Regarding the book of Daniel Asimov only comments on a small number of verses.

    You wrote the following "nor to keep repeating information that has been posted on here for years. I have already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread". My reply to that is that I have not seen such information here. I didn't become very active on this until about two years ago, or so. As a result I know very little of what was written on this site prior to then. When I use the search engine feature of this site I notice it is of very little help to me. It is very hard for me find relevant posts on this site to what I am specifically looking for.

    I did see your link about Christian tradition regarding the 70 weeks, but I didn't see (or at least I don't recall seeing) a link by you to information about the Seleucid period in regards to the book of Daniel. If I had seen such, I wouldn't have made the comments asking for you to document your assertions about the Seleucid period. Yes I know I can dig around the internet to see what atheistic scholars say about interpretations of the book of Daniel. But I was asking you to back up your claims because you (at least in my perception) kept urging readers to accept them and I saw very little offered by you in support of your claims. I was not alone in having this perception. scholar stated that he also had that same perception. There is a principle which says that the one making claims in an argument has the responsibility to prove his/her claims; that it not the responsibility of those who disagree with the claims to prove that the one making the claims is wrong.

    Since you now saying you are not interested in persuading people to adopt your views, then I will stop asking you to back up the claims you made in this topic thread. I also might dig through all 45 pages of this topic thread so see if somewhere you "already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread". I also will probably try to find on the internet detailed documentation and argumentation (discussing the book on a verse by verse basis) in support of the idea that the visions in the book of Daniel pertain primarily to the Seleucid period. However, I think it will be very hard for me find such since atheistic writings are scarce in comparison to Christian writings. On the internet the number of Christian articles about biblical verses is several orders of magnitude greater than atheistic articles commenting on the same verses, thus making it hard to find the atheistic views on those verses.

    Regarding your comment of "If you are willing to defer to supernatural ‘explanations’ for the author of Daniel supposedly having access to future events ... " I say the following. I defer to both religious interpretations and nonreligious interpretations. I am open minded as to my sources. I weigh the evidence and arguments presented by both sides. On many topics, including political topics, I weigh both pro and con arguments. For example, I do that regarding the following topics: creationism verses evolution (and evolutionism in general), pro-abortion verses pro-life, political conservative policies verses political liberal policies, supernaturalism versus atheistic naturalism, afterlife versus on afterlife, the idea of reality of no human caused climate change versus the idea of the reality of human caused climate change, ESP exists verse ESP does not exist, etc.

    Furthermore, I was not claiming (or even saying it is possible) that the author of Daniel supposedly had access to future events by supernatural means. I was saying that the author of Daniel supposedly might have had access to future events by ESP means. ESP is the same as supernatural. In my view is that if ESP exists it is not something supernatural.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    waton, in reply to your comment of "DJW, yes, for example I expect to be in upstate NY on April8 2024, at 3 pm, together with the shadow of the Moon, but do you believe that all that already exists?" I say the following. I think it is very possible that such exists, though such an idea is a strange one.

    Based upon the idea, last night I did two experiments in which I tried to call to mind what I know (in the sense of present self learning what my future self knows what is happening at his time) will happen in the immediate future. I tried call to mind ('remember'/'member'?) my future observations in the same way I call to mind (remember) my past observations. To my astonishment I very soon experienced both events happening, though certain particulars were reversed. I was stunned. Experiences like those outcomes of my two experiments, as well as some other experiences, make me think that I might have some latent ESP ability.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction to my prior post to Jeffro: I made a major typo where I hurriedly wrote "ESP is the same as supernatural." I meant to instead say "ESP is not the same as supernatural." In my view if ESP exists it is something natural not something supernatural.

    Update: Something can be paranormal yet not supernatural. The words paranormal and supernatural are not identical in meaning, though many people think they have the same meaning.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Another correction: Where I said "afterlife versus on afterlife" I meant to say "afterlife versus no afterlife".

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