by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Disillusioned JW:
I don't recall you providing documentation showing how the verses of Daniel accurately matter he Seleucid period, though you urge us to accept that Daniel is about the Seleucid period.
This isn’t some ‘wild theory’ that ‘I’ ‘urge’ anyone to ‘accept’. It is the mainstream scholarly consensus.
Jeffro, the "New American Standard Bible - Study Edition" (as published by A. J. Holman Company in 1976) in its Survey of the book of Daniel, written by G. Douglas Young, Ph.D., says the following. "But there is no evidence in history that the Jews issued under a pseudonym a book claiming to be a revelation from God and set centuries earlier than the time when it is alleged to be presented to the public. In the absence of such historic evidence, there is no scientific basis for departing from the accepted Judeo-Christian tradition of a sixth century B.C. date and authorship by Daniel." Jeffro, disprove (with documented evidence) that claim of Ph.D. scholar Young if you can.
Jeffro regarding the hypothesis that the purported visions in the book named Daniel pertain nearly exclusively to the the Seleucid period, I didn't say it is "some ‘wild theory’ " nor did I suggest it is such. I also recognize that the majority of biblical scholars of the book of (called) Daniel accept that hypothesis, but I still want to see ample evidence before I fully accept it. I don't want to rush to conclusions. Some of the faith-based Bible commentaries, which I own and hold in high regard, don't accept that hypothesis.
As an example of me needing ample evidence on this toipic, consider the following. Despite me knowing since around age 10 that the majority of scientists (especially biologists and anthropologists) are convinced that evolution is true, it took me many years of research before I rejected day age special creationism and accepted biological evolution as true.
One of the most recently published books of the WT which I obtained and decided to keep (at least for now) is the First Printing of the First Edition of the Pay Attention to DANIEL'S PROPHECY! book (copyright 1999). I obtained it at a JW convention. I have kept the book, despite now being an atheist, because it references history books (and journal articles on history) in support of its claims.
It is entirely unsurprising that Christian “faith-based commentaries” hold to traditional Christian interpretations, which require superstition to ‘explain’ how an early writer of Daniel could know about events in the Seleucid period. If you are happy to accept that ‘maybe it really is a prophecy about events hundreds of years in advance’ (a requirement for accepting authorship in the 6th century BCE), there’s probably not much I can do for you until you have reasoning skills based more firmly in reality.
Page 131 of the WT's commentary book (in the above mentioned edition) on the book of Daniel quotes The Wycliffe Bible Commentary in support of the claim the 4th kingdom in the vision of Daniel chapter two is about the Roman Empire. I own The Wycliffe Bible Commentary. Page 789 of that commentary in regards to Daniel 7:7,8 says the following. "As in chapter 2, the fourth stage of empire is Roman."
I agree that It is entirely unsurprising that Christian “faith-based commentaries” hold to traditional Christian interpretations, and it was for full disclosure that I mentioned that the commentaries were faith based.
Since I am an atheist, I don't believe that the book of Daniel is a prophecy in the since of being inspired by God. But if it was written in the 6th century B.C.E. it does meet the dictionary definition of being a prophecy. If such is the case then its writer (whether Daniel or someone else) was a prophet, in the same sense that Edgar Casey and Nostradamus were prophets - whether they were true prophets or false prophets. The writer of the book might have been a brilliant futurist, maybe even one with some 'psychic'/ESP powers to foresee the future.
Disillusioned JW:
Since I am an atheist, I don't believe that the book of Daniel is a prophecy in the since of being inspired by God. … The writer of the book might … even one with some 'psychic'/ESP powers to foresee the future.
This is simply substituting one irrational belief for another.
If you wish to convince me and others 100% that Daniel refers to the Seleucid period
I’m not particularly interested in trying to convince people who don’t approach things rationally. If you want believe that the author of Daniel had magical powers to predict the future, go right ahead. I’ll stick to what I’ve found not only by my own independent analysis but also in agreement with the mainstream scholarly consensus on the matter.
Jeffro
So now you have finally revealed the truth of the matter in that rather than your opinion that Daniel was not a prophetic work of the 6th century BCE but of the 2nd century BC is based not on your personal research but on mainstream scholarly consensus
How foolish your position is and underscores all of your own so-called independent thinking on Chronology posted on your website- simply the majority opinion of others which in your case amounts to 'nitpicking'.
You appeal to rationality yet you ignore the obvious two facts that Daniel in its entirety provides nine chronological data that establishes the time when Daniel received the visions described by him. Next, Daniel sets out 12 references to the future which convey a futuristic outlook rather than a historic outlook.
Regarding 'mainstream scholarly consensus' of which you boast this has been recently challenged by a Semitic scholar and former Witness, Rolf Furuli who refutes the Maccabean Thesis in great depth.
Further, leading SDA scholars have also debunked this so-called consensus in the published Symposium on Daniel- Daniel & Revelation Committee Series Vol. 2, Frank B. Holbrook, Editor, 1986, Biblical Research Insitute.
More noteworthy however are the two WT publications on Daniel published as commentaries on the book which assists any reader to approach the subject rationally.
scholar JW
‘scholar’:
So now you have finally revealed the truth of the matter in that rather than your opinion that Daniel was not a prophetic work of the 6th century BCE but of the 2nd century BC is based not on your personal research but on mainstream scholarly consensus
No, liar. That is explicitly the opposite of what I said. I said “My own independent analysis”, adding that it is “in agreement with” the mainstream view. Are you dishonest or just stupid?
You appeal to rationality yet you ignore the obvious two facts that Daniel in its entirety provides nine chronological data that establishes the time when Daniel received the visions described by him.
I distinctly remember someone saying something similar to me in 1521. I know, I’m not old enough for that to be true, but it’s right here in black and white so I guess it’s undeniable. 🤣
Rolf Furuli
hahahahahaha
leading SDA scholars
Hahahahaha
More noteworthy however are the two WT publications on Daniel
Hahahahaha 😂🤣
Jeffro
No, liar. That is explicitly the opposite of what I said. I said “My own independent analysis”, adding that it is “in agreement with” the mainstream view. Are you dishonest or just stupid?
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Well if you have some 'independent analysis' as you claim then 'Where is it?' Or is this some pretence of yours solely relying on mainstream scholarship?
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I distinctly remember someone saying something similar to me in 1521. I know, I’m not old enough for that to be true, but it’s right here in black and white so I guess it’s undeniable. 🤣
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Well based on your appeal for rationality the argument presented is quite reasonable for the book contains nine date stamps or time stamps covering a historic period of 82 years- 618c BC- 536 BCE
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Ha Ha Ha Ha shows that you are a fool a simple Nitpicker!
scholar JW
ozziepost
What is your position on Daniel? Was it composed in the 6th century or 2nd century BC?
scholar JW
I didn't say I believe in 'psychic'/ESP powers. I don't believe in them. But I am open minded about their possible existence. I thus did not replace belief in the supernatural with belief in 'psychic'/ESP powers. Furthermore, I became open minded about the possibility of 'psychic'/ESP powers more than 10 years before I became an atheistic naturalist. I became open minded about the possibility of 'psychic'/ESP powers while I was still a believing JW, and it was largely as a result of watching documentaries on TV about such. However I think it is unlikely that any 'psychic'/ESP powers exist since their existence has never been scientifically conclusively demonstrated to exist. I have books by Victor Stenger in which he says scientific experiments attempting to demonstrate ESP have failed. But a number of scientists continue to do experiments to see if some form of ESP exists to some degree. Some scientific peer reviewed journal articles have reported positive results of certain types of ESP (including short-term precognition), but other scientists were unable to repeat the results. In some cases flaws were found in the way the experiment was done and/or in the way the data was processed. In regards to whether I want to believe in ESP, I do want to have ESP abilities.
Einstein, as represented in the block theory of the universe, said that the past, present, and future co-exist. If that scientific idea is true, then it seems that it might be possible for people know their future much the same way they remember their past. Furthermore, the scientific idea about the possibility of time travel includes the idea that the past still exists (otherwise how could someone travel to the past?) and the idea that the future always exists (otherwise how could someone travel to the future?).
