Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

waton

D JW, you said:
I think it is very possible that such exists, though such an idea is a strange one.
we were talking about solar eclipses, well calculated millennia into the future and past. A civilisation 5 light years away could have seen the Madras OR eclipse of 2017 just at this moment, , but the great event does not exist anymore in some page of the so-called block universe. The universe has rolled on, all that is left is the radiation, like a tire mark on the road called time.
There is not an alternative Earth floating out there 2 light years ahead in time that already embodies the 2024 eclipse locations. Only the time and spatial locations can be calculated.
Based upon the idea, last night I did two experiments in which I tried to call to mind what I kn things happens. experiments
The key word is mind, an amazing instrument that creates pictures for us where there are none. The real world looks quite different in xray, microscopic, more detailed view. without the awe, beauty concepts our back of the brain has build in. so,
wait for a real awesome vision,
Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:
Since you now saying you are not interested in persuading people to adopt your views
To say I have no interest in persuading people is incorrect, but I am more interested in people improving how they think, and to do so without fallacious reasoning or just accepting traditions. I have examined every relevant part of the Bible regarding JW claims about 607 and 1914, from scratch. I have compiled much of that information at http://jeffro77.wordpress.com. In that process, I intentionally did not refer to how other sources interpret the relevant verses, instead only using the Bible and then afterwards, considering encyclopaedias regarding historical events, and only after that seeing how other matters fit in. The advantage is that people like ‘scholar’ cannot say (that is, when they try to, they are lying) that I have simply copied ‘worldly’ or ‘apostate’ sources. The downside is that I don’t have a long list of what scholars say in depth on the subject, because it has not been necessary for me. I present that information to demonstrate that what the Bible directly states can readily be shown not to support JW interpretations (and by extension the views of various other groups), and that discovering such information doesn’t require fallacious appeals to authority. But I do not expect anyone to blindly accept what I or anyone else says. Instead, I would encourage people to consider what I’ve said and verify it for themselves, including pointing out errors.
Based upon the idea, last night I did two experiments in which I tried to call to mind what I know (in the sense of present self learning what my future self knows what is happening at his time) will happen in the immediate future. I tried call to mind ('remember'/'member'?) my future observations in the same way I call to mind (remember) my past observations. To my astonishment I very soon experienced both events happening, though certain particulars were reversed. I was stunned. Experiences like those outcomes of my two experiments, as well as some other experiences, make me think that I might have some latent ESP ability.
Is this meant to be in some way compelling? Thinking about things you might do in your typical environment and routine and finding that you correctly ‘predicted’ some of those things a short time later is banal. It sounds indistinguishable from imagination and guessing. (Depending on how immediate, you could also be referring to déjà vu, which is basically a misfiring of the order in which immediate and short time memory formation is consciously recognised, but also sometimes just a colloquial term for events being similar enough to previous experiences.) What were your controls for this is experiment? What was your threshold for considering an event similar enough? Is any of it verifiable? (These are not questions for you to answer here, but examples of what you should think about in considering the validity of your experiment.)
Disillusioned JW

Hi Jeffro. Thank you very much for your reply. Earlier today, before reading minutes ago your reply, I became much more convinced of your idea regarding the visions of Daniel. That was a result of reading the following sources today: https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/daniel-11-in-context/ and Irwin's Bible Commentary, in regards to what it says about the book of Daniel. Thanks for providing your link to your page on wordpress .
Regarding my experiment, the actions observed were what other people did near by me.
The first one was that a woman on roller skates, who was near me, would fall within a minute while next me after passing me. That very soon happened but on the opposite of me than what I expected (after she passed back to where she was earlier). Her falling while to the left of me was the reverse of where I 'predicted' she would fall moment earlier.
In the other experiment I 'predicted' that a police car (whether a regular city police car or a Sheriff's car) would pass me by from behind me (while I was on the bus I was on at the time) before the bus turns left onto a different street. Several minutes later while the bus was waiting at a traffic light to make the left turn, a Sheriff's police car passed me from behind. Before that event happened, I changed my prediction to say a police car (whether a regular city police car or a Sheriff's car) would me pass me by from behind after the bus had turned left onto the other street. Before the previously mentioned police car passed me (while on the bus) by, a Sheriff's police car on the cross street passed me by (while the bus was waiting to make its left turn) from the right moving to my left. If the bus turned onto that street a half a minute earlier, it would been passed by from behind by that other police car. It was several minutes from my making the prediction (and from the time of me revising the prediction) before I heard the sound of the police cars and thus before I saw the police cars. Prior to hearing the siren of the first police car, I was starting to worry to my attempt of prediction, one which I had thought was very likely (like a memory, but of the future) wouldn't happen. Granted it didn't happen exactly the way I imagined it (I did not image it happen at the intersection, but rather well before; and later I thought it would be well after it), but what did happen was close enough to satisfy me and astonish me. Close in the sense of like how our memories (especially for some of us, including myself) of the past are partially inaccurate instead of perfect.
These are the two experiences I was referring to of my attempt to call to mind what I would observe in the near future. I mention these examples not to convince anyone of the possibility of the block universe model of time and the possibility of calling to mind future observational events of one's life, but rather to give a reason why I personally think such are plausible ideas.
I hope the above also answers regarding whether what I experienced was déjà vu. I also hope it answers your questions of what my controls were.
Jeffro

Did you make a record prior to these incidents of what you predicted would happen? Or did you leave it open to retrofitting events as needed?
Jeffro

I should add that neither of the ‘predictions’ are particularly amazing. A person on skates might fall over. A police car might pass a bus. Certainly not anything that would qualify as reliable evidence of ESP or anything similar. (Now, if it were that you were sitting at home and envisioned a skater falling over and later went somewhere where there was not a reasonable expectation of seeing skaters, but nevertheless saw a skater fall over, that might be somewhat more impressive though still not conclusive.) None of what is described sounds any better than guessing, and there is no evidence of any experimental controls at all nor any method of verification.
Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, it was as I described it above. If by record you mean a written record, the answer is no. I had no need for such for I had no intention to report it to anyone (other than to a close friend of mine). I only posted it here because someone asked me if I really think the future might already exist - and even then I hesitated to post it. Yes the 'predictions' can easily be attributed to making guesses, specifically educated guesses. After all I said, "I mention these examples not to convince anyone of the possibility of the block universe model of time and the possibility of calling to mind future observational events of one's life". Perhaps these examples are nothing more than what would be expected from making educated guesses. It was by thinking of prior times that a police car passed me by that I got the idea that a police car would pass me by on a specific road in a specific direction on the particular occasion mentioned.
Jeffro

I suppose it’s fun to muse about such ideas, but it’s just that it doesn’t meet any standard of evidence. Proof would require a verifiable record with specific non-trivial details in advance of the events along with a method of verification that the events actually occurred as described (not possible over this forum). But even if you could establish that you can reliably predict near future events at a rate better than chance taking into account educated guesses, that still wouldn’t prove whether the explanation is block universe or messages from god or that you’re just really intuitive.
Disillusioned JW

True, but it would nice if I was really intuitive. I guess what happened was just a matter of me making good guesses. For today I did not come up with any good guesses.
scholar
ozziepost
- I accept that this is a contested question.
- I also accept that Jews themselves have held the book of Daniel to be part of their canon.
- I accept the book of Daniel to be part of God’s inspired word to humankind.
From both my JW background and Moore exposure I see that God’s sovereignty over human affairs is the theme of the book of Daniel and the record of the Babylonian kingdom being replaced by the Persian, in turn the Greek then the Roman Empire is all described, but finally God’s eternal kingdom.
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Thanks for your comment and it would appear that we are on the same page in that the theme of Daniel is God's sovereignty over mankind or human affairs expressed by the temporary rulership of the major World powers from Daniel's days to be replaced by God's eternal Kingdom.
However, you failed to give your opinion as to the book's date of composition and would be interesting to know if the Anglican Church has an official position on this contested subject?
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In the absence of a clear interpretation from either yourself or your Church of Daniel's prophecies, it is rather odd that you complain about WT theology being convoluted when in fact much of it is in fact grounded in Orthodoxy i.e. we accept most of the major basic doctrines of Christianity.
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I ‘hear’ many of the points that you and others are posting on this thread but it ultimately comes down to whether we want to come ‘under the word’ or ‘over it’.
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Very true but the science of interpretation known as Hermeneutics allows for the role of both methods in the interpretation of God's Word the Bible - Exegesis and Eisegesis. The latter method is applicable, especially when dealing with the apocalyptic genre such as the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation.
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ou must admit that the W/T’s writings have been well short of the plausible.
Come on, do you truly believe all that Anglo-America stuff?
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Yes I find it very plausible as our interpretation is well-grounded in both ancient and modern history as well explained in the two published commentaries on Daniel in 1958 and 1999. I had the experience some years ago whilst doing research on the tree vision of Dan.4. to make a thorough survey of the available commentaries on Daniel located altogether on a bookshelf at Moore College and made just such a comparison of our interpretation with that of the then prevailing scholarship. I then believed and still believe that we gave got it just right!! making plain common sense.
By way of interest, the two leading commentaries are of John Collins and of Klaus Koch both are a must-have in studying this fascinating book
scholar JW
scholar

Jeffro
Post- Redisillusioned JW
I don’t know why you expect me to provide you with all the answers. I’m not here to spoon feed people nor to garner followers, nor to keep repeating information that has been posted on here for years. I have already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread, and the mainstream view also isn’t some national secret, yet you seem more focused on Christian commentaries as your source. Perhaps try Wikipedia as a starting point to find citations to scholarly sources.
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The difficulty that you have is that you simply rehash opinion, not addressing simple basic questions relating to your opinion or the opinion of so-called mainstream scholarship whic simply amounts to an assertion.
For example, you have made reference to the Wikipedia article on Daniel whose very own opening statement states "The Book of Daniel is a 2nd century BC biblical apocalypse with a 6th century BC century setting".whic sources the most prominent Danielic scholar, John Collins. The article provides no proof or evidence in support of this claim or 'mantra' and neither do you in your website article 'Daniel's dreams and visions' which asserts the following on page 2 of the article:
"Whilst it is possible that some of the tales were based on older folklore, there is broad agreement among biblical scholars that the book of Daniel was actually written in the second century BCE". Nowhere in the 12-page article do you provide any substantive fact or line of evidence that supports your position yet you claim that your research is independent of others.
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If you are willing to defer to supernatural ‘explanations’ for the author of Daniel supposedly having access to future events, it is preposterous that you would expect detailed evidence from me for ‘daring’ to suggest the plainly reasonable conclusion that the author of Daniel wrote about things that had already happened but used a setting of the Neo-Babylonian period as a metaphor for events up to and including the Seleucid period.
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Utter nonsense.It is not a matter of deferring to some supernatural influence at all but simply reading the book already acknowledged to be of a sixth-century setting, date stamped nine times with clear twelve statements of a future application consistent with already OT prophetic genre.
To argue that somehow the book is of a 2nd-century composition requires a 2nd century setting with date stamps matching that time period but such requisites are missing from the book thus it is quite preposterous to argue this position without firm indices.
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To argue that somehow Daniel used its sixth century setting as a metaphor for the Seleucid period is an historical fabrication disproved by the very fact that in its 11 th chapter a portion of the Seleucid period is referred to in combination with reference to the corresponding Ptolemaic period which occurred long after Daniel's day succeeding after already identified previous World powers. In short, the successive world events from the sixth century as described historically is a direct and explicit confirmation of its agreed apocalyptic nature apart from the book's internal and external evidence.
scholar JW

Simple Question Re 1914

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