Evolution Deniers - An Endangered Species

by cofty 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  The Rebel

  Independent thinking John. It's even more valuable than posts from the " NCBl or Gallop" itself -)
  
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  Ruby456

  John Mann I mean much much much before 4000 bc.

  but I agree with regarding the huge gap between animals and humans and that gap is the human imagination. The imagination helps us to suspend first order belief and think about things and make our way through higher and higher order beliefs
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  TD

  I posted from NCBI and from Gallup itself.
  

  Yes.
  

  To be honest, the nature of the controversy in the article you cite strikes me as odd though.
  

  i.e. Although the mirror test was a good indicator of self-recognition, it was a poor indicator of the lack thereof.

  Aren't you arguing for the latter of the two? Or are you arguing that self-recognition is separate and distinct from social cognition?

  
  

  
  

  
  
  
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  Caedes

  I'm not entirely sure he understands anything other than how to copy and paste!

  John, you might want to go back and reread what I wrote, the basic premise that the experiment is meant to show is not in itself controversial. The methodology used by some researchers was challenged and when the experiment was repeated with more rigorous methodology the results were the same.

  Psychological tests have to be very carefully set up and interpreted to ensure that the results do not suffer from confirmation bias.
  
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  John_Mann

  I'm not entirely sure he understands anything other than how to copy and paste!
  John, you might want to go back and reread what I wrote, the basic premise that the experiment is meant to show is not in itself controversial.

  I don't speak English very well but I can swear you mentioned the lack of ANY PARTICULAR controversy about these scientific experiments.

  And the basic premise of the experiment is highly controversial. If you want I can show you more scientific information about that.

  Gallup himself made a distinction between self-awareness and consciousness. His experiment is not even about consciousness by his own definition. That's why no scientific paper talks about consciousness.

  The methodology used by some researchers was challenged and when the experiment was repeated with more rigorous methodology the results were the same.

  They changed the mark test by using chocolate cream as substance and this variation of the mark/spot test made many primates fail this very new variation.

  Failure it's not equal to "the same" (in other languages at least).

  Psychological tests have to be very carefully set up and interpreted to ensure that the results do not suffer from confirmation bias.

  Yes, especially when someone is highly biased toward scientism.
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  John_Mann

  Or are you arguing that self-recognition is separate and distinct from social cognition?

  That's exactly what Gallup said!

  He made a distinction between self-awareness/recognition and consciousness.

  That's why you will never find a scientific paper talking about consciousness in this experiment.

  And the article from NCBI says the primates only use the mirror instrumentally and not in an ontological way of the kind "I can see myself through the mirror therefore I'm".
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  Anony Mous

  The problem is that the mirror test in itself is learned behavior for humans. Children don't learn to recognize themselves until ~2 and that requires help. Some people suffer from DMS and don't recognize themselves - that has nothing to do with not being self aware or "conscious".

  Most animals are aware of themselves existing in their surroundings. They are aware of other animals like them and not like them. The question is where do you draw the line between humans and non-humans?

  Is it imagination (dreaming)? Dogs dream

  Is it altruism? Most animals are capable of altruism

  Complex thoughts? Lots of primates are capable of doing math in their head.

  As with everything about creationists: ask them to draw a line in biology that makes us "us" (without relying on metaphysical mumbo jumbo)
  
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  cofty

  (without relying on metaphysical mumbo jumbo)

  ^^^ This ^^^
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  cofty

  Humans aren’t the only great apes that can ‘read minds’...

  For years, only humans were thought to have this key cognitive skill of attributing “false belief,” which is believed to underlie deception, empathy, teaching, and perhaps even language. But three species of great apes—chimpanzees, bonobos, and orangutans—also know when someone holds a false belief, according to a new study published today in Science. The groundbreaking study suggests that this skill likely can be traced back to the last common ancestor of great apes and humans, and may be found in other species....
  
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  Ruby456

  awareness is also pretty complex and has been done almost to death in philosophy. It is to do with experiences of something rather than consciousness - what i mean is that philosophers make this distinction. awareness here comes under sensa for most modern philosophers. Interestingly Kant called such awareness intuition and Locke and Berkely called them ideas. so here we can see how there can be a confusion between experience as awareness and consciousness.

  but awareness itself as sensa/experience does throw up some pretty interesting questions - one of which is can we be unaware of a particular experience and yet still experience it? imo Plato thought we could but that we misidentified it. His thought is to do with eternal forms that intelligent people who mediated on the issue could access - but through mathematics. here we are still in awareness and not in consciousness. taking awareness to be to do with empiricism