Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus 133 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Francois

  I think we have here a lots of blind people describing an elephant. Who among you has seen Jesus much less the existential God? Not one. How do you know that when The Son is mentioned, the scripture means Jesus and not an existential Son, the second person of Diety? And when the Holy Spirit is mentioned, what is meant is the Infinite Spirit, the existential Third Person of Deity? You don't, and I can't prove that these statments DO mean any such thing. But if my position that Jesus of Nazareth, The Carpenter, Master of this local universe is NOT the second person on the trinity, ALL OF YOUR BELIEF SYSTEMS ARE KNOCKED INTO A COCKED HAT...and you must start over.

  It would be far, far, better for you to frame your beliefs about Jesus as speculation as opposed to elevating your poor guesswork to the level of divine truth. Wouldn't you think so too?

  Frank Tyrrell
• 

  ellderwho

  Dean,

  why would one need the Holy Spirit to declare Jesus is sir?

  ellderwho
• 

  Dean Porter

  Ellderwho, I am not entirely sure I understand what you are asking me here. Could you elaborate for me the crux of your question and then I can give an answer rather than guess at what you are asking. Thanks Dean.
• 

  herk

  Francois,

  Aren't you being a bit unfair? You wrote:

  I think we have here a lots of blind people describing an elephant.

  What is that supposed to mean--that we're all blind except you? You wrote:

  Who among you has seen Jesus much less the existential God? Not one.

  What we have seen and read are Jesus' own words. Surely you're not calling him blind too, are you? We also have the words of the apostles. Were they blind too? It really boggles my mind when people with brains in their heads parrot what others have told them rather than using their own minds and reading for themselves what the Bible plainly says. You wrote:

  But if ... Jesus ... is NOT the second person on the trinity, ALL OF YOUR BELIEF SYSTEMS ARE KNOCKED INTO A COCKED HAT...and you must start over.

  And that is exactly what we've done! We got rid of all the embellishments that uninspired men have added to the sacred Scriptures, and we started over. We went back to the original. Why condemn people as blind simply because they want to know the honest truth? Shouldn't your accusation be focussed instead on those who would rather be spoon-fed the teachings and traditions of uninspired men who have ADDED to the Bible? Blindness doesn't come from reading and accepting the Scriptures. It comes from ignoring them and choosing pagan philosophies instead.

  Herk
• 

  mizpah

  It took three centuries or more to define the trinity doctrine. Christians were divided on the issue for several more centuries. And some Christians held to the unitarian belief down through the succeeding centuries.

  As relfected in the writings of Paul and other NT writers, I think it is clear that they still held to the Shema. The evolution of the trinity doctrine paralleled the evolution of the church. As the Gentiles became the majority in the church, they began to accept the Greek and Roman philosophers along with the gospels. Also, strong anti-semitic feelings developed. The church desired to break all past connections with their Jewish roots.

  I'm convinced that the trinity doctrine played an important role in this. What better way than to develop a teaching that only intellectuals could appreciate and explain? And what better way to divorce the Jewish members who would never accept the equality of God and Christ?
• 

  Hamas

  Yes, but does it really matter ?

  You cant prove anything in the Bible. One verse is just as easily backed up as the next is made exempt !

  But if it keeps you happy, go for it man. Hi Ho Silver.
• 

  herk

  Mizpah wrote:

  The church desired to break all past connections with their Jewish roots.

  How true!

  At John 4:22 Jesus said to a Samaritan woman concerning himself and the Jews of his day: "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."

  Those words--"You worship what you do not know"--could well be applied to trinitarians. Like the ancient Samaritans, they worship what they do not know. They even admit that they cannot describe their mystical three-person god in human terms. Try as they may, they can't point to a single illustration in nature or ordinary human life that might help a child or anyone else to grasp what their god is like.

  But the Jews of Jesus' day did know their God, and they did not know him as a Trinity! Jesus did not say that salvation comes from the wisdom of the Greeks and Romans who worked the Trinity dogma into organized Christianity. He said, instead, "salvation is from the Jews," the Jews who worshiped as God "He who reveals the profound and hidden things. ... God in heaven who reveals mysteries, ... a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, ... the great God." (Daniel 2:22, 28, 447, 48)

  Unlike the plain-speaking God of the Jews, the pagan god of the Greeks and Romans creates inexplainable, unsolvable and unscriptural mysteries about himself.

  Herk
• 

  ellderwho

  Dean,

  The terms Lord and God can be applied to many individuals and they are in the bible to the Father and the Christ AND ALSO to men. Paul is not saying that only the Christ can be called Lord as the term Lord was even used in Bible times as a simple form of address like we would address a person as Sir or Lord ( like a Judge or Minister ).

  The crux of the question is the Holy Spirit enables a believer to declare Jesus is LORD or KURIOS. Thus, why would we need the Holy Spirit to declare Jesus as something less(sir) than the KURIOS? I believe thats what Paul is indicatating at 1Cor.12:4

  ellderwho
• 

  ellderwho

  Herk,

  But the Jews of Jesus' day did know their God, and they did not know him as a Trinity!

  Do you think Paul the Jew knew what the impact of refering to Jesus as the KURIOS meant?

  In 1Cor12:3 as well as 1thes4:15,16 Here Pauls uses the word(KURIOS) to identify in v15 the Lord, the NWT calls him Jehovah then in v16 they(the NWT) leave Pauls word as KURIOS or Lord [the one descending from heaven] to complete the theology.

  You start to realize that the translation of the NWT is adjusted to fit their doctrine. There are many more examples of this kind of work.

  The only reason I bring this up is because if the NWT held to true form it would a least transliterated God (theos) as Jehovah. ie "Jehovahs" trumpet 1thes 4:16.
• 

  herk

  Ellderwho,

  Do you think Paul the Jew knew what the impact of refering to Jesus as the KURIOS meant?

  Yes, I believe Paul knew the full impact of what he wrote.

  • At Romans 15:6, Paul did not say that Jesus is God. Instead he said that Jesus has a God just as we do. There he urged us to glorify that "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
  • At 1 Corinthians 11:3, Paul showed the superiority of God over Jesus by stating that "God is the head of Christ." God has no head over himself, but he is the head of all others, including Christ.
  • At 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28, Paul showed that there was a time when nothing was in subjection to Jesus. The change came when God "put all things in subjection under his feet." But Paul explained that there was an exception to "all things." One person was not made subject to Jesus. That one person is God. Paul wrote: "But when he says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all." It baffles me why trinitarians find this plain language so difficult to understand. Paul said "it is evident." In other words, it should be perfectly obvious that God would not subject himself to anyone, even his own Son. It should also be perfectly obvious from this that the Son is not equal with his Father as trinitarians claim.
  • At 2 Corinthians 1:6, Paul did not urge us to bless Jesus as God. Instead, he wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Only the Father is the universal God, and Jesus is Lord of the universe because God appointed the man Jesus Christ to that position. Clearly, the two titles God and Lord are not equal.
  • At 2 Corinthians 11:31, Paul again shows that he understood clearly the impact of calling Jesus kurios or Lord. Showing the clear distinction between God the greater and Lord the lesser, Paul mentioned "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus."
  • In Ephesians 1, Paul twice showed the superiority of God and the inferiority of Lord by speaking of "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory." (Verses 3 and 17) Far from being Almighty God, Jesus is said to have a God above him.
  • In that same chapter, Paul showed that Jesus is exceedingly great over all others because God "raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church." (Ephesians 1:19-22) How can it be more clearly shown that God is far higher than all others, including Jesus Christ?
  • At Philippians 2:9, Paul wrote that "God highly exalted [Jesus], and bestowed on him the name which is above every name." So Paul knew that Jesus is not God. He knew that Jesus was exalted by God following his death and resurrection. Jesus was not "highly exalted" in ages past, and he did not have "the name which is above every name," until God exalted him and gave him that name.
  • At Colossians 1:15, Paul did not claim that Jesus is God, that Jesus is eternal or that Jesus is the Creator. Instead he said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, first begotten of all creatures." Adam was also created in God's image, and Adam was not God. Jesus was begotten, and someone who is begotten comes into existence as a living creature after he is begotten.
  • At 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul explicitly excluded Jesus as God when he described him simply as the agent of the one God. He wrote: "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." So how can Jesus be God when he serves as the mediator "between" God and men?

  In view of all the above, I think it is only fair to ask, Exactly how many times does Paul have to testify to the fact that Jesus is not Almighty God before he is actually believed?

  You wrote:

  You start to realize that the translation of the NWT is adjusted to fit their doctrine. There are many more examples of this kind of work.

  I am not a JW, and the NWT is not my favourite Bible, but in fairness, I feel it should be pointed out that trinitarian translators have done their own share of adjusting the text to fit their doctrine.

  Herk