Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1 (page 7)

LittleToe

You can take the elder out of the JW, but you can't take the intolerant, bigotted, JW out of the...
JW.

LOL - just yanking ya chain, stillajwexelder.

Jesus prayed to His Father. Even the Trinity agrees with this.
Try researching what the Trinity is actually about, and presenting facts disputing that, rather than believing everything you read in the Trinity brochure

FWIW, I don't believe the Trinity as presented by the WTS, either, and haven't met many who do.
They set up a straw man, and knocked him flat.

Btw, you never presented which doctrine you believe JW's have correct. Am I to suppose that you conversely mean that you don't believe in the Trinity, which you hold in common with JW's?

LittleToe

Ellderwho:I find the order interesting.
I think it's obvious that here it's the Father being refered to by the title "God", yet He is mentioned AFTER the Christ.

I wouldn't read too much into it, though, because of 1.Cor.11:3.
There we find the headship order is given, but the way it's presented mentions Christ first, then man, then God. We would be unlikely to state that man is equal to God, or that this is a strict order, because of this.

If we are going to take anything out of the order, of these verses, it does show that the Christ was first on the mind of the Apostle before even God.
The Christ was so personal to him, that he mentioned the Christ before the more abstract "God" (and I don't mean that irreverantly).

I take far more interest in the phrase "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ".
The NWT consistently renders this "the undeserved kindness".
This is something that is usually attributed to God.

The NWT is then inconsistent in it's rendering of the part the Holy Spirit plays in this benediction, in that it merely uses the word "sharing" instead of partnership, fellowship, communion, or some such relationship.

stillajwexelder

LittleToe -- I am not a JW appologist -- I just can not believe the trinity -- I have read far too many books (the trinity brochure I have read but it is not what I would call a scholarly publication) - -I perhaps tend to trust academics too much -- there are so many reasons why it is a farcical teaching -- "Hear O Israel the lord our God is actually not one God but Three now fancy that" -- but I do not trust or belive the JW teachings either -- or most of their explanations -- prefer PhD thesis etc.

LittleToe

Still:
S'ok, like I said, I was just yanking your chain.
You did present the Trinity as a JW would, though.
You gave the well worn "who did Jesus pray to" example.
I'm afraid you lost brownie points for that

stillajwexelder

I am not interested in brownie points --- it was what attracted to me to JWs in the first place - exactly that question -- who did Jesus pray to? --I had been asking the question for years to all the born-again types- -I never got an answer that made sense -- when JWs said one was the Father one was the son and the other a sort of active force it all made total sense - sorry if I still sound like a JW - I am (in theory)

Double Edge

my 2 cents...

I'm one of those Christians that believe God and Jesus are separate, but both one "God" in purpose.... there are just too many examples in the Bible that point to that fact (at least for me.... and I've never been a dub.... oh wait, the JWs don't think Jesus was 'divine' do they).. . I agree with Little Toe, salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not the Trinity is made up of three distinct entities or not , but rather the central message that Jesus is the Messiah and Redeemer.

One of the least talked about scriptures that point to my belief is found in Genesis 1:26...

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Sounds like more than one to me.....

LittleToe

Seems this thread has lost it's impetus, and moved onto the next one, so it's fair game for off-thread comments...

Still:
But even Trinitarians would agree that Jesus was praying to the Father.
How the heck did that cause you to go involve yourself in a cult?

Regarding brownie points, I meant regarding your argument, not your estimation on the board

(LT - of the "I'm tired and heading to bed" class)

ellderwho

Little Toe

I see the order purely as the process of Salvation. Christ being the key opening of insight to the Godhead.

This along with 1Pet 1:2

"according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifiying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood:..."

A reference to each person of the Godhead. Thus, election, redemption, obedience.

1.Cor.11:3.

As a matter of order, I see being" head of my house" or the Head of my wife not to mean that I am greater than my wife.

"Underserved kindness" does seem to lessen the thrust of Grace.

ellderwho

stillaexjwelder,

I found this at CARM.com

One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try and set them against scripture showing that Jesus is also divine. On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse. They focus on the scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity.
For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature ( Luke 2:52 ) yet know all things ( John 21:17 ). He is the Divine Word that became flesh ( John 1:1 , 14 ).
The Bible is about Jesus ( John 5:39 ). The prophets prophesied about Him ( Acts 10:43 ). The Father bore witness of Him ( John 5:37 ; 8:18 ). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him ( John 15:26 ). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him ( John 5:36 ; 10:25 ). The multitudes bore witness of Him ( John 12:17 ). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself ( John 14:6 ; 18:6 ).
Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33 ; 20:28 ; Col. 2:9 ; Phil. 2:5-8 ; Heb. 1:6-8 ; and 2 Pet. 1:1 .
1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father ( 1 John 2:1 ). He is our Savior ( Titus 2:13 ). He is our Lord ( Rom. 10:9-10 ). He is Jesus.

Do the witnesses really need Jesus?

stillajwexelder

The WTBTS is WRONG - I know that -- from my research /reading there is no doubt Jesus is divine and absolutely central to the Christian faith and JWs minimize him -- but that still does not make him par tof the trinity -- the stupidest thing a born-again christain ever said to me was that it was like light - it is dual natured -- both a particle and a wave but that scientist do not understand it but they accept it -- then I really blew him off -- and got into my real show off mode - and mathematically proved it to him on the doorstep -- my companion on the door at the time -- said "that was untheocratic and unchristian, brother' -- I replied all trinitarians really piss me off -- she did not report me to the elders thoug -- I was an elder -- and she was shocked

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

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