by cofty 86 Replies latest social current
But have you read the actual bill C 16?
Yes i read it weeks ago and listened to Peterson's analysis of it.
Do you think gender or gender identity should be a protected class
I think that men and women should enjoy equal rights. That is already the case in most (non-Muslim majority) countries.
I have no idea what it would mean to make "gender identity" a protected class. There are only two sexes. About 0.3% of people have gender dysphoria. I think they should be treated with dignity and respect.
Okay, let's imagine a situation. In class:
"Yes, the lady in the back".
"Excuse me, Mr. Peterson. I prefer you call me 'gentleman' rather than 'lady'"
(Normal world:) "Sorry. The GENTLEMAN in the back"
(Petersons world:) "I REFUSE to pander to your Marxist ideology!" (Black helicopters swoop in and Jordan Peterson is taken to room 101).
From what I have heard of Peterson you have totally misrepresented his position. If a transgender person wants to be known as he or she he would have absolutely no problem with that. Neither would I.
I have no idea what it would mean to make "gender identity" a protected class.
A protected characteristic is one which you are not allowed to discriminate upon. For instance, I am allowed to discriminate by a person level of education (only applicants with this level of education will come into consideration), but I am not allowed do discriminate based on e.g. sex or religion (no Muslims or men need to apply).
An idea behind this law is to make gender identity (code word for transexuals) a protected characteristic. So I am not allowed to discriminate by for instance refusing to hire a trans person.
Do you think that is a bad idea?
I already said that transgender people "should be treated with dignity and respect". However I can understand why, for example an employer might not want to hire a man with gender dysphoria for certain jobs within their business.
A biological man in a dress at a reception desk might not be the image a company wants.
Do you understand how you totally misrepresented Peterson's position?
Okay, let's imagine a situation. In class:"Yes, the lady in the back".
"Excuse me, Mr. Peterson. I prefer you call me 'gentleman' rather than 'lady'"
(Normal world:) "Sorry. The GENTLEMAN in the back"
(Petersons world:) "I REFUSE to pander to your Marxist ideology!" (Black helicopters swoop in and Jordan Peterson is taken to room 101).From what I have heard of Peterson you have totally misrepresented his position. If a transgender person wants to be known as he or she he would have absolutely no problem with that. Neither would I.
Well, I was not trying to represent his position, but trying to understand what this whole pronoun business as an infringement of my free speech comes down to in practice ("pandering to special snowflakes")
Suppose you are on campus and someone wants to be called "Zip" or whatever on his application form instead of Mr or ms. is that what is bad? Or if the person wants to be called "Zip" in class? is that what is bad? I have been teaching myself, and if someone asked to be called Zip I would just do it and shrug. I can't see where the actual harm is in that request and quite frankly I don't think there is any such harm without a very elaborate argument about marxism.
If Jordan is not imagining a situation where he refuses to call a person "Zip" in class, what else is it?
And while we are on it, no legal harm has come to Jordan for refusing to use certain pronouns. The idea that there is potential legal harm is entirely hypothetical at this point.
I already said that transgender people "should be treated with dignity and respect". However I can understand why, for example an employer might not want to hire a man with gender dysphoria for certain jobs within their business.A biological man in a dress at a reception desk might not be the image a company wants.
Do you understand how you totally misrepresented Peterson's position?
Then please explain his position to me, in particular where the actual harm is in C 16. This is supposedly a major threat to free speech, something radically new which is why he speaks out with no regard to his job, career or freedom (according to himself), so it should be fairly easy.
As to your example, yes, I too can also understand why you don't want a man in some jobs (for instance, cleaning the women's shower in the swimming pool), or you don't want a 69-year-old as a bouncer in a club, or a person who refuse to handle pork on religious grounds in a restaurant. These too are protected characteristics (gender, age, religion) but these examples do not present insurmountable obstacles to the courts or civil society.
The kind of example which is in mind for these laws is that where your local firefighter is fired because the boss decides he is no longer a "real man" now that he likes to dress up as a woman in the weekend. Is that in your opinion discrimination that should be legal?
BTW. the standards for "harassment" (which I think is what Jordan is getting at with the legal business and not using pronouns) is quite high when it comes to the other protected characteristics. At best, he might get in troubles with his university, but that remains to be seen and is (as you noted) a place where it is reasonable to let the employer use some discernment in terms of who should represent the university.
The alt-right keeps banging on with these slippery-slope arguments when it comes to transsexuals without understanding that these obstacles are already successfully navigated for N-1 other similar characteristics and their associated potential problems.
Okay, let's imagine a situation. In class:
"Yes, the lady in the back".
"Excuse me, Mr. Peterson. I prefer you call me 'gentleman' rather than 'lady'"
(Normal world:) "Sorry. The GENTLEMAN in the back"
(Petersons world:) "I REFUSE to pander to your Marxist ideology!" (Black helicopters swoop in and Jordan Peterson is taken to room 101).
Except that completely mischaracterizes the issue. The real issue with the legislation is, as he highlights, that the conversation could go:
"Yes, the lady in the back".
"OMG, you called me 'lady' instead of 'fingfangfooey', the word we just invented yesterday, you are guilty of a HATE CRIME!!!"
(Black helicopters swoop in and Jordan Peterson is taken to room 101).
Much more sinister.
The fact is we have societal norms for pronouns because they are useful and most people identify as HE or SHE. Some are born both or neither or as the opposite to what they want (sometimes, because someone else guessed or decided what they should be) and it's unfortunate. I expect the majority of those people also want to be either a he or a she.
These invented pronouns are just someone's power-play to beat people up but like so many uber-liberal idiot nonsense, the people they want to beat up are not those that oppress them, or kill them or do any number of despicable things. it's regular people who are doing nothing wrong and intending no insults simply by using common and expected language.
And it is this kind of idiotic PC extremist that erodes sympathy for a group because they turn the moderate people who previously weren't their enemy into exactly that. Are people still surprised we got Trump? This, this is why it happened. People get sick of those who show up precisely to make an issue of something. Social Justice Warriors assemble, grab your Latte's from Starbucks, someone used the wrong word. Ignore the actual hate crimes and abuses, focus on the trivial.
It's no different to when people jump on someone for using the term "colored" even though the context is being supportive of black colleagues. If people want to make an issue of everyone's slightest mistake then guess what will happen: they'll be ignored or called whatever name people want. What difference does it make?
And how will the world work when there are 10m different invented pronouns that people want to be referred as and it's a crime to get one wrong?
So many important battles to fight right now, and some idiots want to fight this. This is why the left loses so often - the right attacks the extreme left first that doesn't have general support and then work toward the center until they meet resistance. The left attacks the center and those only slightly to their right while ignoring the extreme right to their peril.
Simon:
Except that completely mischaracterizes the issue. The real issue with the legislation is, as he highlights, that the conversation could go:
"Yes, the lady in the back".
"OMG, you called me 'lady' instead of 'fingfangfooey', the word we just invented yesterday, you are guilty of a HATE CRIME!!!"
(Black helicopters swoop in and Jordan Peterson is taken to room 101).
Much more sinister.
But is that actually what the law is about?
I have taken anti discrimination/harassment courses in this stuff in a university environment (I won't say which but I can PM it) and the behaviour they try to limit is nothing like this (also, university policy is far more restrictive than that in outside society as it is in most workplaces).
If his student wished to be called 'fingfangfooey', Jordan's subsequent actions would need to meet the bar for actual harassment for that to be a problem. That bar is quite high in other circumstances and does not usually pose a problem.
The problem of students wanted to be called 'fingfangfooey' should be seen in relations to how often that occurs (according to Cofty, less than 0.3% of the people are transexuals, and presumably the fingfangfooes are a subset of those so you are unlikely to encounter one in several years), and what harm will come to Jordan for saying "Sorry, 'fingfangfooey'", and get on with the class. Not getting upset by the occasional stupid stuff said in class is part of maintaining your professional distance.
Of course there are trolls who will try to abuse that system, and that trolling is reported very wide and far, but I think that when Jordan manage to find trolls or genuinely confused students then perhaps another course of action is to recognize he is dealing with a confused person and take it like a man and say Xir?
Simon, do you also see C 16 as a great threat to free speech in canada as Jordan claims?
I expect the majority of those people also want to be either a he or a she. - Simon
That is exactly what transgender people are saying about this issue. The 0.3% who have gender dysphoria want to be accepted as male or female. We should of course accommodate that
The far bigger group who flounce around demanding to be called Zi etc are poseurs. Their position is based on the nonsense that gender is a social construct and they can choose from an ever-expanding menu of options and change their mind again next week - and everybody else MUST play along.
So many important battles to fight right now, and some idiots want to fight this. This is why the left loses so often - the right attacks the extreme left first that doesn't have general support and then work toward the center until they meet resistance. The left attacks the center and those only slightly to their right while ignoring the extreme right to their peril.
Okay that resonates a lot with me. The way I see it there is the "crazy blue-haired left" and the "crazy right". Both are trying their hardest to sell moderates as their worst parody of the other side. However, I think the right-wing has been far, far more effective in selling (and spreading) the picture of the "crazy left". This can be seen by how the fake news writers have found the right-wing stories to sell better and Trump might just have won an election based on fake news stories largely parroting crazy-right propaganda.
Furthermore, the white house strategist is professional alt-right troll Steve Bannon. This has a large impact on the world stage whereas I think the worst the crazy left has managed so far is to ban the occasional Halloween. If I actually meet a student one day who will be called Xir I will call him or whatever Xir and mentally put him on ignore: Problem solved.
I will go so far as to say there might be an ethical (not legal) issue in Jordan Peterson posting videos of students who might not be well in their heads who go off on this Xir and Zip stuff and making money off it.
