Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

_______ If JESUS is GOD, is MOSES also GOD? _______
LittleToe

Herk:
Since the "Law" consisted of shadows, pointing forward to the Messiah, what do you make of Ex.4:16:
NWT "And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him." (LXX - ton theon)
stillajwexelder

And I say again -- read the history of the Arian controversy in the 2nd - 4th centuries -- Read when Jesus became God -- just because the watchtower tells lies does not make the trinity correct - trust me I am not brainwashed by the WTBTS - I would not be on this board if I was -- the controversy was between two bishops mainly - one was called Arius he was non trinitarian Jesus is not God but yes the Watchtower tells lies and distorts -- but that still does not alter facts -- I wish when I defend the monotheistic viewpoint people would stop labelling me as watchtower brainwashed -- I am very widely read outside their literature and did not come into the truth until my late 20s after I had a first class education -- and now I am saying too much and helping to give my identity away
LittleToe

Still:I suggest you spend less time getting upset, and more time protecting your identity, dude.
I made exactly the same mistakes, in my final months of being a JW.
During the 2001 Elders School, the C.O. came asking probing questions.
You aren't the only one to read about the Arian controversy, nor to get an education.
There are Trinitarians and Unitarians, alike, who have studied these things and come to a variety of conclusions.
Tolerance in all things, my friend.
When we all stand before Christ's judgement seat, we shall probably all be proved wrong in some detail or other. It's just as well that we're not going to be judged on our theology, huh?
mizpah

I think that trinitarians and unitarians have a different view on the "divinity" of Christ. Trinitarians see it as a part of his nature as God. Unitarians see it as something bestowed upon him by his father even as is his lordship. Unitarians do not deny his divinity. It is only the source of that divinity that comes into question.
As "High Priest" and as "Mediator" Christ plays a third party role between God and Men. It doesn't make sense to me that he could even fulfill these roles if he was God. He can and does fulfill the role of God and Lord when we consider the many scriptures that tell us that he comes by this authority because it is granted to him by his Father. And Paul makes it clear that in the end he subjects himself to his Father and God.
This controversary has been continuing for centuries. With all the complex arguments and commentaries, I still think it is easier just to accept the simple relationship that has been revealed in the Bible: Father and Son. I'm sure this is how the early Christians accepted it. All the rest is only commentary!
herk
Little Toe,
I believe Exodus 4:16 is a key to knowing the relationship between God and Jesus.
Others in addition to Moses and Jesus were appointed to "serve as God":
At Exodus 3:2, 11 and many other places, the angel of the Lord is addressed or spoken of as God.

In Psalm 45:6, the sons of Korah addressed the king of Israel: "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." They didn't believe in a Trinity where God the Father and Israel's king were each part of a universal Godhead. In the following verse they mentioned the God who is served by the king. But they knew why it was proper to speak of the king as God. The king was God's chief spokeman and representative. Just like Moses, he spoke to the people for God. What he declared as king was as sacred and as weighty as if God himself had said it since his authority came from God.

Jesus pointed out to the Jewish leaders that each of the ancient judges of Israel was called God. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:33-35) They judged for God and their decisions were to be accepted as if they came from God himself.
It seems logical to me that Thomas addressed Jesus as God [ho theos] because Jesus 'served' in the same way that the angel, Moses, and Israel's judges and kings 'served' as God. We get a glimpse of this Jewish view of the Messiah's relationship with God at Luke 7:16: "Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, 'A great prophet has arisen among us!' and, 'God has visited his people!'" The people saw in this "great prophet" a visit by God himself to his people. They would have glorified Jesus as God if they viewed him as Almighty God himself, but they did not.
When Moses prophesied the coming of Jesus, he said "'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people." (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:22; 7:37) Moses did not say that God would raise himself up. The one to be raised up would be a man like Moses, and he would be raised up "from among your own people."
God further told Moses: "I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." (Verse 18)
The Jews clearly understood Moses and did not expect the promised prophet to be God himself. This is evident in the question they asked John the Baptist: "They asked him, and said to him, 'Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?'" (John 1:25)
It is also evident at John 6:14 and 7:40: "Therefore when the people saw the sign which he had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.'" "Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, 'This certainly is the Prophet.'"
The apostles did not expect the prophet to be God himself. This is plain from John 1:45: "Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'"
All who 'served' as God received their power and authority from the God they served. That was true even of Jesus. God the Father did not receive his authority from anyone. He is the one who gives authority to others. And so, Jesus said,
"All things have been handed over to me by my Father." (Matthew 11:27)

"All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)

"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand." (John 3:35)

"Even as Thou gavest [the Son] authority over all mankind." (John 17:2)
We read elsewhere:
"Jesus [knew] that God had given all things into his hands." (John 13:3)

"[God] seated him ... far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church." (Ephesians 1:20-22)

"Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name." (Philippians 2:9)

"God ... has spoken to us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things." (Hebrews 1:1, 2)

"He was faithful to him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all his house." (Hebrews 3:2)

"[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him." (1 Peter 3:22)
Every knee bending at the name of Jesus is the same as bending the knee to the Father since Jesus at the present time is acting in behalf of the Father. But it will not always be that way. Someday, as 1 Corinthians 15:28 points out, "the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all." Even now, when Jesus possesses all authority in heaven and on earth, he is not in actuality equal to his Father but serves as Mediator "between" God and men. (1 Timothy 2:5)
I find it strange that trinitarians seem able to blot all of this from their view of God and Christ and that they at times even appear offended when others can't accept their view. I for one was threatened at a prominent Baptist seminary with damnation to eternal flames simply because I said I was struggling with the teaching and trying to understand and accept it.
Herk
stillajwexelder

Still:I suggest you spend less time getting upset, and more time protecting your identity, dude.
I made exactly the same mistakes, in my final months of being a JW.
During the 2001 Elders School, the C.O. came asking probing questions.
Sorry, you are correct -- there is no need for me to get upset -- I need to spend some time in Arrochar or Tarbet or Perth or even better still Mallaig -- very realxing and then to drink some Glenmorangie - -and yes I do know the correct pronunciation of that beautioful single malt - please accept my appologies
LittleToe

Herk:
Like you, I struggle with people being intolerant. I recall coming up short, one day, when someone asked me if I were so bigotted that I thought only my interpretation of scripture was correct (I was a JW at the time).
I accept the scriptures that you have quoted but would add the usual rider that these were comments made by Jesus AFTER his humiliation (Phi.2:7). But I know you've had that angle brought up before.
If we might stick to the mediatory role, for a moment.
I would state that a mediator is usually of sufficient authority to broker a resolution between the parties. Whether or not it is imparted authority, or not, it is assumed.
Mizpah:
With regards to "divine nature"; whether he has always had it, or was given it later, it doesn't reduce the fact that scripture attests to his possessing it.
I suspect that many Trinitarians would state that Jesus possesses his various attributes, due to his "divine nature", which he holds in common with the Father.
Arguing at which point he had this is less fruitful than considering whether or not he has it now, and hence is worthy to be worshiped.
IMHO regardless of how "right" we think our doctrine, we all look through a poor and bedarkened mirror and look forward to the time when we may see him face to face (1Cor.13:12).
LittleToe

Still:No apologies required. I wasn't rebuking you (perhaps I should have added some emoticons), I was just warning you of how things can get out of hand. I did the same myself, and spent a paranoid few months waiting for a knock at the door. It's easy to forget that Simon's living room has open windows.
That part of Scotland is lovely, and I live further North than that. It's a privilege to have such surroundings, and even better to sip a fine glass of Glenmorangie.
The pace of life here is far slower than many other places that I've lived, and hence gives plenty of time for contemplation.
herk

Little Toe,
I don't think possessing "the divine nature" makes one equal to God the Father. For example, we read at 2 Peter 1:4: "For by these he has granted to us his precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust."
So, as I see it, Jesus possessed "the divine nature" even before the cross. According to Ephesians 4:13, 24, that appears to be God's goal for each one of us, that "we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. ... and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."
And Hebrews 12:10: "He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share his holiness."
Also, 1 John 3:2: "We know that when he appears, we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is."
Ultimately all Christians will be divine. I see a hint of that in Revelation 3:9 where God promises that "indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (NKJV, ASV, KJV, KJ21, Wycliffe)
Such worship does not make the receivers of the divine nature equal with Almighty God or partners in the Godhead. As I see it, it simply shows that their position is somewhat like that of Jesus and Moses and the ancient judges and kings of Israel, namely, that they "serve as God."
Herk

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

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