Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

Little Toe,
I'm not phased or upset in the slightest, by Herk. He does seem to have got his knickers in a twist, though
You truly can be obnoxious at times - and please take that as an observation regarding your style, rather than an insult.
Y'know, after a while I get tired of that kind of condescending talk. If I found you obnoxious, I wouldn't get personal about it. But you don't seem to mind getting in the gutter.
I'm sorry if I don't come across as a saint. I work long hours and I don't spend a lot of time trying to smooth out and polish up what I write with the hope that nobody will be offended. I'm a Bible student, not a psychologist. Most of what I've written has come right from the Scriptures. My suspicion is that it is the Scriptures that offend far more than anything I have to say about them. And I noticed that you didn't use a single text to support anything you wrote in your last post.
What I want is Scripture, not your theories, some of which are quite false. Think again, for example, on whether the Jews addressed God as Father before Jesus came along.
You closed with a wish for peace. But you didn't mind telling me a thing or two concerning what you think of me as a person. I don't think you want peace, Little Toe. I really don't. If you did, you'd be far more conciliatory. Instead, you even felt a need to dredge up the past, with the subtle hint that all mistakes were mine alone and that I haven't changed a bit.
For the sake of genuine peace between us, Little Toe, I'm calling it quits with you. You had your say, and now I've had mine. Which one of us will now continue an attack on the other? If we both truly desire peace, we'll drop our discussion here and now. If you want a last word, you're welcome to it. But I've said all I want to say.
Herk
hooberus

I will be posting some more "troublesome Trinity" verses shortly. I am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity. The first post was 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, the second 1 Timothy 2:5. I think that is heplful to concentrate on 1 verse or closely related subject at a time. (Though you are free to discuss what you wish, I have noticed that most (though not all) "Trinity" debates degenerate into a scriptural ping-pong match, with each side sending volleys of verses and concepts at each other with out understanding how the other side thinks or carefully looking at the verses the other side uses. These posts are my attempts as a Trinitarian to deal with the arguments used against the trinity by non-trinitarians. For example I examined the Watchtower reasoning behind 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and then showed that it was faulty, I then showed how 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 actually supports the full deity of Jesus Christ. Of course others may still have a different belief on this verse. Anyway, I plan on (Lord willing) dealing with many of the anti-Trinty verses commonly used in a series of many "Troublesome Trinity" posts. I hope to do this taking into account the other sides arguments as well as using parallel verses. I actually hope for a series of controlled, relatively short dialogues covering each verse or closely related concept thoroughly rather than a one or two long theads which go all over the place. Due to the complexity of all of the subjects surrounding the Trinity, I feel that this is the best way to dialogue and have constructive discussion of this very important subject. Though you are free to post as you wish within the guidelines, I ask that for the sake of contolled discussion that the topics of discussion within each thread remain reasonable close to the specific "verse" or concept of that specific thread. Hopefully this will lead to better understanding of the issues.
hooberus
ellderwho

Little toe
Welcome to my world.
Yizuman

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

Isaiah 43:3I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.

Isaiah 43:10-11You are My witnesses," says the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.

Isaiah 44:6-8"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
"I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one."'

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Isaiah 44:24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
"I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
John 1:1-5In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Isaiah 45:15Truly You are God, who hide Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!

Isaiah 45:21Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

1 Timothy 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Timothy 2:3
This is good, and pleases God our Savior

1 Timothy 4:10
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Timothy 1:10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

1 Timothy 6:15which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Yiz
LittleToe

Ellderwho:
On the contrary, welcome to mine
Herky-baby and myself had a wee run-in earlier this year.
He's actually a nice old fella, when he's feathers aren't ruffled.
Herk:
I've already called it quits, when I addressed your questions by sharing my opinions (as YOU asked, as a precursor to being forthcoming with yours - - - That sounds so like "your show me your's and I'll show you mine!!" - LOL).
I'm not asking you to extract your own wisdom teeth, Herk, I'm only interested in what your position is in relation to those questions. I only want your opinion. If you need back-track on it later, so be it, but I'd like to know where you currently stand.
You see, I'm quite open to having my position altered when presented by facts. The Lord only know's how much my doctrine has changed over this past two years.
I don't lose respect for people, when they offer their opinion, only when they dodge away from presenting it.
But please, just a short synopsis is all I'm asking. I intentionally tried to keep mine short, so that you might see my position. I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence by supplying hundreds of proof-text, which I am aware that you are already conversant with.
Truly in peace, LT
BornAgainGirl!

Herk,
How many trinitarians do you think you can get to agree with you that your theory--totally new and completely unheard of before--is a proper explanation?
Actually, at least one. I didn’t make it up, I heard it somewhere.
Do you honestly think your theory is anything like what we read in the Scriptures?
No, but neither is adding God’s 3 persons to get 3 gods.
From ages past, the people of God have known him as One Person, not three persons. Why should any of us feel a need to add to what the Scriptures teach?
The Trinity teaching is not adding to the Word of God. It is taking it in its entirety. While reading the Bible, one can find that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. (Need references? I can give ‘em to you if you’d like.) Yet we read that the Lord our God is One! The only assumption that can be drawn, in our limited human knowledge, is the Trinity – an invented word, of course, but the best that has been stated to describe God’s nature.

At Genesis 16:13, 14, we read about a member of Abraham's household, a woman who certainly should have known the truth about God: "She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: 'You are the God who sees me,' for she said, 'I have now seen the One who sees me.' That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [meaning 'well of the Living One who sees me']; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered." (NIV, footnote)
I agree that the Lord is One.

When God appeared to Moses and the elders of
BornAgainGirl!

When God appeared to Moses and the elders of
BornAgainGirl!

Oops, trouble. Let me try this:
Herk,
How many trinitarians do you think you can get to agree with you that your theory--totally new and completely unheard of before--is a proper explanation?
Actually, at least one. I didn’t make it up, I heard it somewhere.
Do you honestly think your theory is anything like what we read in the Scriptures?
No, but neither is adding God’s 3 persons to get 3 gods.
From ages past, the people of God have known him as One Person, not three persons. Why should any of us feel a need to add to what the Scriptures teach?
The Trinity teaching is not adding to the Word of God. It is taking it in its entirety. While reading the Bible, one can find that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. (Need references? I can give ‘em to you if you’d like.) Yet we read that the Lord our God is One! The only assumption that can be drawn, in our limited human knowledge, is the Trinity – an invented word, of course, but the best that has been stated to describe God’s nature.

At Genesis 16:13, 14, we read about a member of Abraham's household, a woman who certainly should have known the truth about God: "She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: 'You are the God who sees me,' for she said, 'I have now seen the One who sees me.' That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [meaning 'well of the Living One who sees me']; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered." (NIV, footnote)
I agree that the Lord is One.

When God appeared to Moses and the elders of
Dean Porter

I have read this thread with interest and would like to throw in some thoughts.

Professor Barclay points out that the word translated mediator is MESITES and does literally mean a 'middleman'.

Westcott defines the term as " one who standing between the contracting parties shall bring them into fellowship".

So to be a true middleman, he must be seperate from 'both parties' so as to be truly in the middle and thus unbiased. Therefore, he cannot be the God on one hand nor part of mankind either.

However, he is the perfect choice in that he has shared both divine nature and human nature and thus can sympathise with both sides.

But you will say, how can you say he is not part of mankind when the scripture indeed calls him the man.

Well, I will offer an explaination on that point in a moment. First consider the TYPE for this arrangement in scripture.

Barclay points out that in Jewish thought 'Moses' was considered to be the Mesites between God and men in his day. But Moses was a MAN too.

However, consider this, Moses was a Hebrew by birth, but, he was raised as a FREEMAN

in fact as Royalty in the house of Egypt. He effectively was never a SLAVE like the hebrew nation held captive in Egypt.

Thus Moses was not strictly part of that ENSLAVED NATION. Therefore, he could act as a middleman between God and this nation of Slaves.

Likewise, Jesus , although he was born a man, he was born SINLESS and thus was 'seperated from the sinners' and therefore he did not need to be reconciled to God unlike the rest of Mankind who are ENSLAVED TO SIN.

Thus he can truly be 'in the middle' being neither the Almighty God ( the Father ) nor part of SINFUL MANKIND.

Why did Paul call him 'the man' ? Paul knows Jesus is now glorified in Heaven so Why emphasis his humanity here.

Well Professor Barclay makes a fine point when showing that in Jewish minds there was " a deep awareness of the inbridgeable gulf between the divine and human, between God and Man.The jews came to think of ANGELIC INTERMEDIATION to convey their prayers to God".

He goes on to say that the Angel Michael was called the MESITES, the MEDIATOR between God and Man. ( In fairness to him he later goes on to say he views Jesus as both God and Man)

However, the point is Jews thought of the Angels as carrying our prayers or intercessions to God. Think of the account of Gabriel appearing to Zechariah. Zechariah and Elizabeth had 'prayed' for a child. Gabriel appeared to Zechariah whilst he was in the Holy of the Temple making the Incense offerring ( incense representing prayers).

Therfore Man - prayer - angel - God.

But now Paul says Man - prayer - Jesus - God.

It is no longer an Angel who intercedes on our behalf; an angel cannot sympathise or empathise with our human nature or desires / temptations, but rather Jesus - a man who was human , tested , tempted and who can sympathise / empathise with us.

Therefore, I think this fits the requirements of this verse for Jesus to be a true middleman. Being not a 'party' to the dispute but being fully qualified to be the acceptable arbitor between the parties.

This distinction could not be true if he was GOD and a party to the dispute.

Gal.3:20. bears a mention also but I will comment on that shortly as I don't want to say too much on this post.

Dean.
LittleToe

I don't think you'll find biblical support to the conjecture that angels intercede with our prayers.
They were used to bring messages from God, not to Him.
The Jewish mythical notions may help the mechanics of a "Jesus is an angel" philosophy, but they have little basis in scripture.
(All the above is IMHO).

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

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