Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3

by hooberus 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PRB

  Hi LittleToe,

  Of course each one of us need to settle this kind of issue on our own (without the help of biased parties). I settled this isue for myself a long time ago by honestly reading Pro-Trinitarian and Pro-Unitarian material and carefully examining those materials against the Bible. I found that the Pro-Trinitarian arguments always came up short.

  To take the kind of reasoning (expressed earlier) a little further, one can observe that the word "Lord" is used throughout the NT to refer to both Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH). Does that mean that both Jesus and Jehovah are the same? If so, why refer to them by different names? Also, why isn't the Holy Spirit also referred to as Lord or Mighty God? As for those who may say that there is no place in the NT where YHWH is found, many Bible scholars agree that there are places in NT text where the Tetragammaton should have been used.

  Having said all of that, I've found that the issue of the Trinity has not been an obstacle to prevent me from enjoying fellowship with both Trinitarian-Christians and Unitarian-Chrisitans. None of us have everything 100% right and many of these issues will be clarified for us on the Lord's day.
• 

  LittleToe

  PRB:
  I did it differently. I gave the bible a fresh examination (not believing in the Trinity), and first of all the deity of Christ leapt out.

  Like you, I'm happy in the company of most Christians, regardless of the finer points of their beliefs.

  To whom do you attribute the name "Jehovah"?
• 

  PRB

  Hi again LittleToe,

  If your question is which divine entity do I identify as Jehovah, then my answer is the Father. For me, Jehovah is the one identified in the Bible as Elohim rather than simply Adonai. I do fully accept the divine nature of Christ since he was the only one directly created by the Father (John 1:18 also Col. 1:15). He is also the one that we as Christians are supposed to establish a relationship with.

  Jehovah's Witnesses go in the other direction regarding Christ by giving all praise and credit only to Jehovah while forgetting that they were instructed to become followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. They give Jehovah ritual praise in the same way that many fundamentalists use the phrase "Praise the Lord". Christians should be looking to Jesus to find directions on walking the narrow path. He is our spiritual model.

  Yes, Jesus is the one I follow, but the Father is my God.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PRB

  Do you believe that First-born means born first in Colossians 1:15?

  Deputy Dog
• 

  JCanon

  The Son is the Son, as you state, but he IS a one-off.
  What does creation have to do with THAT relationship?

  Please feel free to supply all the diagrams you want, because the moment you attempt to draw Him, you've become an idol worshipper.

  A "son" is related to but comes AFTER the father, is an "offspring" of the Father and thus considered to be created. This fundamental relationship is correctly and aptly expressed by calling the father creator the Father and the son creation the Son.

  A diagram is not a photo ID. I had in mind a genealogy diagram where it shows the branches of each generation. Identical twins would be shown side by side. The same entity would occupy the same place, etc. In the Father-son relationship, the Father is shown above the son, i.e.

  FATHER

  |

  SON

  NOT...

  FATHER/SON

  NOR

  FATHER -- SON

  In the Father-Son scenario the Father is always older and always first and generally more powerful and preeminent and could be without a beginning, existing in some complex time loop. The son, though, has a specific creation date, is younger than the father, etc. ...and definitely not the same individual no matter how similar he is to the father.

  Anyway, as far as drawing the "face" of the Messiah, God did that himself when he demonstrated the "sign of the son of man" in the clouds to the anointed, one such "sign" that was captured photographically and sent to me. So, there is a picture or image of the Messiah not subject to man's interpretation but it's God's own imagery. Let me know if you want to examine God's handiwork.

  JCanon
• 

  Francois

  I really think this conversation is very like the ten blind men examining the elephant. Each one is CERTAIN that his version is THE correct one in varying degrees of pomposity, JCanon taking the prize in that department in a walkaway.

  Little Toe quoteth "I especially love Deut.10:17 (Literal Version): "For Jehovah your God, He is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords; the great, the mighty, the fearful God who does not lift up faces, nor take a bribe."

  I like this one too, LT, in that it is clear that back in the Bronze Age, in the time of Deuteronomy, there were MANY Gods conceived, but Yaweh, yes Yaweh, of all the Gods bumping around back then, HE was the mighty one, the one you should get fearful of; he's the one who does not lift up faces while those other dudes do, and Yaweh takes not a bribe where those other Gods do. Yaweh was just one of MANY Bronze age Gods and in addition, Yaweh had a wife according to very recent archeology.

  I believe our understanding of God, the real one which informed the teachings of The Master, is very ill informed. Everywhere the old religion serves as scaffolding for the new religion which is being built upon it. This is why we see many features of Catholicism present in the Voodoo religions of the Islands of the Western Indies, and we see the olden features of Voodoo present in it as well. And we smile and tolerate these people not realizing we are doing the exact same thing, on a different level. We attempt to comport the Bronze Age God of Moses with the Loving Infinite Father of Jesus, and we mix up the beliefs about Yaweh with the Father of Jesus who has NO name.

  For reasons of my own, I have become to believe that there indeed IS an existential trinity made up of a Universal God, an Eternal Son, and an Infinite Spirit; all persons, all unique, each one equal, each one a God, all united as one. But Jesus of Nazareth, The Master, is not the Eternal Son. He is a son of the eternal son. And I believe here is where we make our first and most basic mistake. And we will not give up the beliefs that make it up any more than the Voodoo priests of the Islands give up painting their houses around Blufton, SC Voodoo colors, and celebrate Voodoo customs in graveyards at midnights thereabouts, killing chickens and goats and reading the future in their blood and bones, and sending curses causing people to do everything from falling in love to becoming a part of the world of the undead. And their beliefs and arguments are no less intense nor well-defended than your arguments which you regard as so much more sophisticated. They're not. But, in case you've ever wondered, this admixture I'm talking about is the very reason why houses in and around Blufton, SC are painted in such a rich variation of blues, and purples, and yellows, and greens: to keep away the haints. Don't believe me? Read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. That is the real level of your arguments.

  Frank Tyrrell II Savannah, GA
• 

  LittleToe

  Frank:
  I like the way you think.
  I still hold that the Son is the SON, but I'd like to hear your reasoning on what you've stated.

  I suspect that Yahweh is the name of GOD, and so usable by Father, Son or HS.
  I've yet to see a Unitarian successfully explain Matt.28:19.

  Something else I like about Deut.10:17 is that God uses the name "God of gods" and "Lord of Lords".

  I still hold that anyone who thinks they have the monopoly on knowing what God is truly like, are deluding themselves. Looks like we agree on that, too
• 

  hooberus

  In what sense is the Father God?

  "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17
  

  "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever." Psalm 136: 1-3

  "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

  The Father since he is "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17 Psalm 136:1-3) and the "one God" as contrasted with the "gods many" (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) must be the true God Jehovah.

  In what sense is the the Son Lord?

  "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:14-15 "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17

  "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever." Psalm 136: 1-3

  "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

  The Son since he is "Lord of lords" (Deuteronomy 10:17 Psalm 136:1-3) and the "one Lord" as contrasted with the "lords many" (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) must be the true Lord Jehovah.
• 

  PRB

  Hi Deputy Dog,

  Regarding Col. 1:15, yes, I mean first created (or born first).
• 

  LittleToe

  PRB:
  Did you create your own child, or cause them to issue forth?
  There's a clear distinction made between THE Son and every creature or "son of God" (including adopted ones and angellic hosts).

  IMHO since the Son existed before time began, he is equally Eternal with the Father, regardless of whether or not you want to argue which came first (not that I'm saying you're being argumentative. I'm just using a figure of speach).

  JCAnon:
  I've seen cloud formations that looked like faces, too. It caused me to have a closer look at meteorology - a fascinating subject.
  Strangely, though, a cloud on this side of the earth can't be seen on the other.