(unaided by God)Things we can not do! (page 5)

Phantom Stranger

Dog, it belongs to your God to judge us, not you.

Deputy Dog

Phantom

I agree

Dog, it belongs to your God to judge us, not you.

Believe me, I'm not judging anyone! Just thought it might be fun to talk about the bible that's all. When it comes to doing good, I'm in the same boat as everyone else. The reformers called it total depravity. D Dog

Phantom Stranger

Funny thing is, you're right, you are in the same boat as everyone else - being responsible for creating good in the world. You just seem not to know it.

Whoops, got trolled again. My bad.

Deputy Dog

Phantom

If I'm being responsible for creating good in the world, we are all in really baaaaaaaaaaaad shape!

D Dog

Phantom Stranger

uhhh, Dawg...(irony rolls in like San Francisco fog).

WE ARE ALL IN REALLY BAD SHAPE! LOOK AROUND THE WORLD! WHY DO YOU THINK THINGS ARE HOSED? BECAUSE WE' RE NOT KISSING DIVINE ASS HARD ENOUGH? OR BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR THE GREAT FIREMAN TO COME DOUSE THE CONFLAGRATION WE ARE CREATING THROUGH NEGLECT, APATHY, AND FEAR, RATHER THAN GETTING OFF THEIR COUCH-POTATO ASS AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Mohandas K Gandhi

Bendrr

Like I said, you're not proving me wrong, and what I think doesn't really matter. But if God is the sorce of all that is good, wouldn't that make them (the agnostics, atheists, and various other non-christians out there) self righteous?

I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, just to disagree. You seem to be a pretty cool guy to disagree with so whoever said the "t" word, hey give the guy a chance.

How would it make a non-Christian, atheist, or agnostic self righteous? If they do a good deed, it can't be automatically said that God caused them to do it. What then would be the explanation for the mistakes or even crimes in their lives? Whether created with it or evolved with it, humans have free will and the ability to both understand and to choose good or bad.

Mike.

Deputy Dog

Phantom You are right about one thing ...(irony rolls in like San Francisco fog). I know how messed up things are! I'm in law enforcement. I see ugly all the time. I saw things on 9-11-01 that I can't post here. I'm not complaining, I have, what I think is, a great life! I know how evil my heart is and I see how evil men can be. Maybe you feel there is a chance for paradise on earth at man's hand. Its great that you think you are making a difference. I'm here to tell you that there are things that we can't fix. Mans sinful heart being one of them. I believe the difference between you and I is that you want to blame God for everything, I just give him credit for the good in my life, and I'll take the credit for my sin. God didn't make me this way, I choose to sin. I can't choose to do good, but God can and does do good through me. Go ahead put your hope in this life. I'm putting my hope in God for the next life. D Dog

Deputy Dog

Mike

I'm sorry if I misunderstood! Its just that If God is not responsible for my righteousness, that only leaves one person, self, and that would make me self righteous. I believe most people do some good things. Even people who do not believe in God, they just don't realize God is using them. I hope that makes sense.
D Dog

Phantom Stranger

Dawg, a few points:

1) I haven't blamed God for anything. Please point out where you feel that I did, so I can retract my mistake or clarify my words. I take responsiblity for my failings and errors, and I hope to avoid hubris about my successes.

2) We both know how evil men's actions can be, and I doubt that we would disagree on that.

3) I don't believe in paradise...but I do believe that over the last two thousand years, people's quality of life has improved, on average, every generation. I don't just mean standard of living, although that helps, but degree of liberty, and degree of mobility, geographically as well as economically. Do you believe that God has effected these improvements? I don't. I think that the improvements, as well as some of the tragic errors and crimes along the way, are the result of humans striving to make something better, to grow, to rise above their inital conditions and for a moment display the slice of divinity within every one of us. Give me liberty or give me death wasn't about religion...and neither was the American Revolution. It was about making room for people to grow and live their lives in freedom.

I'm not looking for God to save me from the evil in my heart or in other's hearts, Dawg. I will stand against it myself, and with the help of others, and humanity will continue to progress - slowly, painfully, and with many missteps - but progress we will. Hey, it's not that I want you to be wrong, dude. I'd love to sign onto a program where I don't have to drive the bus, I can have faith that it's going to the right place. But it doesn't work for me. The book doesn't do it, quoting the book doesn't do it, the fifth step doesn't do it. Good luck.And just know, I'll give you credit for the good that you do, and I suspect the God of the New Testament would too.

Peace, out.

funkyderek

Sorry to hear you're an atheist.

Don't be.

But I have good news for you, my God can do "good" even through you! And it does not matter if you believe in Him or not. So the next time you do good and you take the credit for it, remember, this might be the only grace you receive.

Deputy Dog, I think you're chasing your own tail. There's no measurable difference between me doing good of my own volition and your god doing good through me, and making me think it's of my own volition. If your god needs to subvert my free will in order to have good done, then we are merely puppets in some sort of demented cosmic puppet-show. If you're picking an untestable hypothesis as your world-view, surely there are more appealing ones available.

Also you may think you are doing good in your eyes or someone elses, but doing good in God's eyes may be harder then you think!

Probably. Fortunately I don't define "good" in relation to the standards of your god or any other.

(unaided by God)Things we can not do!

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