Why So Many False Alarms? (page 3)

refiners fire

Gary.

Well of coursde the dubs pride themselves on telling everyone they are not cult like. They focus upon the cultic aspect of being led by a charismatic single leader and tell us they have no charismatic leader and so cannot be a cult. They ignore the other cultic aspects such as sealed system, information control etc, and focus upon this one aspect, the charismatic leader. They probably dont remember, themselves that a charismatic leader they did once have. As other former cults, now sects, also had. So that arguement of theirs is invalid.

Regarding the case at point. Certainly they have never categorically stated " God says", but the fact is neither has any other cult Ive been involved in. The tendancy is to claim the authority of Christ ( jesus tells us), the angelic forces, St Paul ( the Apostle reveals) etc. This they certainly have done.

I think I posted a thread about claims to spiritual authority within cults just the other week.

Edited: I did.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/57885/1.ashx

garybuss

*** w84 12/1 p. 18 Keep Ready! *** 14 True, some expectations that appeared to be backed up by Bible chronology did not materialize at the anticipated time. But is it not far preferable to make some mistakes because of overeagerness to see God's purposes accomplished than to be spiritually asleep as to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy? Did not Moses make a 40-year miscalculation in trying to act ahead of time to remove Israel's affliction? (Genesis 15:13; Acts 7:6, 17, 23, 25, 30, 34) Were not Christ's apostles overanxious to see the Kingdom established, not to speak of their complete misunderstanding as to what the Kingdom really is? (Acts 1:6; compare Luke 19:11; 24:21.) Were not the anointed Christians in Thessalonica impatient to see "the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of Jehovah"? 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2.

15 There is nothing basically unscriptural in using chronology in efforts to learn "the appointed time" for the fulfillment of God's purposes.
(The Watchtower Dec 1, 1984 p. 18)

***

refiners fire

Ellen G White used that line of arguement first, from what Ive read, back in the 1880s. The dubs in brooklyn must have read her books and thought it a good line of thinking to excuse false prophecy. Lots of other lines of arguement are recurring also, "sifting the church" to weed out "fair weather christians" thru a prophecy test springing to mind. I dont recall the dubs focusing on that one overmuch recently.

Gotta go to work right now!! Later Gary.

garybuss

Heathen, In my reading history of the group I can see that Rutherford was angered beyond words at the United States government for shutting down the operation and imprisoning him and his directors but he could not launch an all out attack on the United States government without risking their wrath again so he launched his veiled attack on the Unites States government by attacking all world governments. His criticisms only really fit Western style governments and of course he was angered at the German government for interfering with his operations there.

The group under Rutherford was really a hate club. Now the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation wants to be seen as a kind credible religion only interested in the good of mankind. Of course we know different by personal experience, and we know the hate club is still well and functioning even if it is better hidden from the casual observer. Hate clubs are not as popular as they once were and it's become difficult to attract healthy new members to a group that has no children program or facility, no singles groups, no recovery programs, no charities, and no rational religious teachings.

Winston, Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is tremendously helpful and valuable. Thanks for adding to the thread and to the board.

RF, Thanks for the link. Don't you think the Awake! masthead that said "It is the Creator's promise . . " was a god says? So they are claiming to be Jehovah's un-inspired channel of communication? That's gotta be hard for the elders to keep a straight face upholding. Jeeze Witnesses, give us a break, even Moses was off by 40 years . . . .

Great posts all, Thanks! GaryB

heathen

Integ --- My reasoning on the issue is that the worldly governments tend to go over board on issues pertaining to personal freedom of speech and association . If there is one thing the WTBTS has done is fight for those freedoms under extreme conditions but in a peaceful fashion unlike most other religions . I just read what garybuss was saying about rutherford being thrown in prison right here in america the home of these alleged freedoms because of the WTBTS view on warfare . If I remember correctly the charges were due to religious persecution and were dropped after a hard fought legal battle. I think the mind control in the WT has gone over board tho .

paterfamilias

Thanks, all, for posting these references. Just this past weekend I spoke with a Witness regarding this very subject. I said that the society admits to being imperfect and that its writings are not inspired, but at the same time, when making a point where they feel they must bring their full authority to bear, they claim they're spirit-directed. So I asked, "which is it?" The Witness replied, "it's a little bit of both." I then expressed that it has to be one or the other. They can't be spirit-directed/inspired just part of the time.

How incredibly convenient! By muddying the waters in this way they get to choose what's correct and what's not. They have a comprehensive CYA insurance policy.

This made me think of something I recently read in Ray Franz's In Search of Christian Freedom (page 421):

True, there is periodic acknowledgement in the publications that the writers are, after all, "imperfect men," and that the organization has "never claimed to be infallible." In actual practice it works out quite differently. One finds out that this only applies to the past, not to the present. While the organization must recognize that it has changed a considerable number of its past teachings -- which makes it evident that they were in error -- it does not feel moved to modesty by those errors, so as to remind its readers that what it now says may also suffer due to that same imperfection. To the contrary, Jehovah's Witnesses are called on to take whatever is currently taught as if it were infallible. In effect they are told, "You should accept everything published as absolute truth until such time as we may tell you it isn't." This is, purely and simply, mind control.

It sort of gives new meaning to the phrase "present truth." That which is spoken at present must be accepted as the absolute truth; the past is negotiable. Could it get any more Orwellian?

refiners fire

Gary. ( and anyone interested) Heres a passage from a book called “End Time prophecy” by Norman Robertson (1989), a Biblical expositor, page 177, the author is interpreting Ezekiel 38, he begins:

QUOTE:… “ Ezekiel 38 v 1-3 ‘Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, Son of man, set your face against Gog (Russian Premier Gorbachev) of the land of Magog (USSR), the prince of Rosh (Gorbachev, Russias leader) Meschek (modern day Moscow) and Tubal (Modern city of Tobolsk) and prophecy against him, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, Behold I am against you Oh Gog…”

On page 187 Robertson explains the interpretation of Ezekiel 38 v 5-7:

QUOTE:… “ Persia (Iran, Iraq Afghanistan) Ethiopia and Libya are all with them, All of them with shield and helmet. Gomer (East Germany, Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia) and all its troops, the house of Togarmah ( Bulgaria, Rumania and Turkey) ..many peoples are with you”…

The Italicized insertions into scripture are His, not mine. The author engages in this practise of inserting his own understanding and interpretation into scripture passages numerous times thru the course of his book. Is he claiming Gods authority for his interpretation or not? What do you think?

As well, on page 183 Robertson writes:

QUOTE:… “ Ezekiel 38 predicts that Russia will come against Israel for food.”

And:

QUOTE:… “ From a study of Ezekiel 38 and 39 we see that it is stated, 17 times, that Russia and her allies will march against the tiny nation of Israel”…

All within the time frame established, of course, by Robertsons interpretation of Biblical chronology.

Is he a “false prophet” in view of the fact that the nations mentioned, once Russian satellites, are now no longer allied with the Communist block since 1990 and the predicted “communist invasion” of Israel is now an increasingly unlikely improbability?

Anyway, It just goes to show the dubs aren’t the only ones interpreting Bible chronology. Id be interested in your opinions on this matter.

garybuss

Thanks Pater, That's a very fitting quote from Ray Franz. Good job!!!!

RF, Your post reminds me of the book The Heavenly Weatherman, by Duane Magnani. There he shows the Watch Tower's god looks at the signs and then predicts the future much like a weather man. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong.

Your example is typical. The issue is not are they prophets or are they true or false, the issue is, are they right or wrong? Right and wrong as they relate to predictions are not relative. I said it would rain at the airport yesterday, Did it rain or not? Easy to prove. If I predict Tinkerbell will sprinkle magic powder on the dragon's tail, that's a whole different thing. It's a make believe character doing an invisible thing to something not real. That's all on the order of a delusion and it requires one to actually enter into the delusion and become a part of it to even take it seriously. GaryB

benext

The WT makes a living on being ambiguous. The use of phrases "suggested dates" and "appeared to be" is truly sickening. By the way are they going to put out WT CD' s so we can read what also appeared in the 1883 and 1896 WT's? Funny how selective quotes are so useful.

JT

They have a comprehensive CYA insurance policy.

NOW THIS IS A GOOD LINE

Why So Many False Alarms?

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