by Farkel 119 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Phantom
The bible does not (in my opinion) speak to this question Are we born inclined more towards "bad" or inclined more towards "good?" It speaks this question "Is Mankind Born Evil....or Good?" My answer to the first is that it does not matter what your inclination or "tendency" is, it won't make you good. D Dog
Farkel, I think I understand now:
The question you asked was: is mankind born evil or good? which suggests we can choose as an answer good or evil. And for this we do need to define good and evil.
However, I think your real question is: Are humans born with a blank moral state or with one that is at least partly predetermined (be it by genes or sin)? In other words, the nature vs nurture debate. Good and evil need not be defined in this case.
This caused alot of confusion and my reason for pressing you to define "good". These two questions are very different. But I understand now, am I correct?
Your last post was pretty good BTW
Greven
Good by what standard?
If by the standard of right and wrong, as dictated by consciencious community-based mores, then maybe we are born with a blank slate.
If (taking Jst2Laws stance) that of "connectedness", I would suggest that we are not born "good", but rather have to forge that connection (which is a supra-religious concept).
I believe the bible supports that concept, especially when highlighting that "being good", from a human ethical standpoint, is not what it's truly about.
IMHO that is what most religions are trying to achieve, but people tend to get wrapped up in the act of religion and quickly miss the point. One of many stepping stones, religion may be, but a dangerous one at that.
Farkel:
If I rephrased it to say "with the propensity towards (good and evil)" that would have been a little less black/white. That's pretty much what I meant anyway, because I know that absolute black/white thinking is very dangerous. Even in my little thread.
Now didn't I just conclude with that back on page one?? LOL
It can not be as simple as good or bad from birth. Some people live thier whole lives as what we would consider to be good, while others turn out as serial killers. Our environment during our formative childhood has great bearing on our lives. And how we as individuals react to the events of our lives shapes us as to the kind of person we will be. Nothing is cut and dried, at best we are born as imperfect and flawed human beings. It is up to each of us how we choose to live our lives. Not everyone will achieve greatness, but at the same time not all of us will become serial killers.
As for myself,
I will not go down in history.
But I will go down on a lady.
Upbringing notwithstanding, from my own experience raising children from infancy, they come into this world with all the inherent personality traits for becoming whatever they will eventually become, whether it be good....or bad....
Frannie B
Isn't it possible to just answer a question without picking it apart first?
It's not about answering the questions. It's about questioning the answers.
Note: not one of you addressed my questions in this thread about congenital birth defects. It's deafening.
sKally
Sorry, sf, I guess we were trying to answer farkel's question. Here's sf's question:
"Are humans, born with congenital birth defects, born 'good' (perfect) or 'bad' (evil)?
Would ANYTHING be 'able', as opposed to DISabled, change this...either way? If so, what? "
I don't think the original question equated good with perfection. Again, here's the clip from Farkel's original post:
"It's the "tendency" to be either good or not good from birth that I'm interested in debating."
I don't see that congenital defects enter into that discussion at all. Are you suggesting that physical perfection correlates with "good" deeds?
Thanks PS,
No, my question is not a brainteaser.
Are humans, born 'disabled' (crippled) thought of as 'bad' and /or 'evil'?
I suppose the question comes from some of my re-search (and childhood experience as a baptized jw) on how 'the crippled' were viewed by the governing body early on. And by Rutherford, earlier. And even Russell. It sure hooked my mom in. Thus the insane krap they kept feeding her to get her to conform ("don't you want to see her HEALED in the new system?") and charitably donate her career paychecks to the WTBTS. And ultimately give that career up.
It also was a major influence in my baptism decision too; the promises of a healed and healthy body at the hands of jehovah. I suppose I have to admit my motives were not 'right' for being baptized, yet the vision of a PERFECTLY BORN BODY was all I could think about for a long time. And I suppose it is why I pretended to 'love jehovah' for as long as I did.
I rarely touch on personal aspects of my childhood in this ROT because many of them are still very raw. They may not seem raw, yet still hold much 'puss' inside the wound.
I guess I wanted my body healed so bad because I could see it was the only thing my mother was yearning for back then all those years ago. It wasn't long before she was constantly throwing the 'dont you want your body healed??' krap at me. I fell for it too.
sKally
btt
Evil and Good are human constructs determined by society,religion, culture, and inner introspection or lack of it.
It is yin and yang, we have both in our psyche. I don't think much about good and evil these days instead I try to be guided by benificial/not benificial without all the judgements of good/evil and the self hate these produce.
