Is Mankind Born Evil....or Good?

by Farkel 119 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  onacruse

  Fark:

  Your response is unintelligible, by reason of the very words you chose and by the very lack of making a clear argument or rebuttal. Be specific and be concise. I do not respond to generalities, and will not.

  Fair enough, indeed! I gave specific references to Greek philosophers and their writings, which I've been reviewing over the last several days. As I know your own familiarity with these writings, I presumed you'd take my meaning by general reference. I'm preparing specific quotations as we speak.

  Clearly state WHAT part of the question was flawed and why.

  Your question is flawed because you didn't, nor have you subsequently, given a clear and objective definition of "good" and "evil"...Euthyphro? (One of your best posts ever, btw )

  If you cannot do this, Craig, and I suspect you cannot do this, then delete this post and your challenge.

  No way, my friend! I'm all for a good debate, where the intent is for better understanding. I failed to jump in on Azzie's thread ("moral absolutes"), and have regretted it ever since.

  My question was certainly not flawed.

  As I say above.

  It may be that the answer cannot be found, but my question was legitimate.

  I never said your question was illegitimate.

  Moderators can delete with impunity and there are no tracks left!

  I'll speak bluntly: Please don't ever again throw that kind of "moderator" crap in my face. I was 'just another poster' here for a long time, and I'd gladly, tomorrow, be 'just another poster' here. I'm nothing more, and nothing less, than anybody else...a person asking some questions, and getting some answers. And you, among many many others, have helped me find those answers.

  Farkel, who doesn't take shit from anyone, including his friends....

  Our friendship 'cuts' both ways and helps both ways

  More tomorrow.

  Craig
• 

  blackout

  blackout,

  : When you are talking about psychology you can't use absolutes, it doesnt work as no one and nothing is absolutely good or evil by anyones definition.

  Not even God. Not even Jesus? Not even Hitler? By your definition above, the answer is "yes!" Well, THAT is interesting.

  I'll get to the other comments, since the commentors insist upon it!

  Farkel

  Hi Farkel

  You are right, not Jesus not Hitler. As for God, who is he? If he exists I would have to say the above applies to him also, especially if you mean the biblical god.

  Perhaps I should not have said "by anyones definition" as some have differing beliefs in God and would define him as perfectly good.
• 

  greven

  Onacruse, I agree (see my previous post)!

  The question cannot be answered unless we have an objective definition of "good". Farkel already provided the definition of "evil" which he defined as 'not good', a negative. Fair enough. We don't know what that is however until we define "good".

  I was ignored too btw :o((( sniff sniff sob sob.... LOL

  Greven
• 

  azaria

  This is a kind of a hodgepodge. I'm in a hurry to go to work now.

  Good and evil are not opposites.

  Good and bad are opposites

  perfect and evil are opposites or as you would seem to say perfect/imperfect or evil/unevil

  The opposite of perfect is imperfect. Perfect flawless sinless, imperfect flawed sinful

  cake is good or bad not good or evil; no-cake tastes good or bad

  Your groups:

  Group 1 consists of the (mainly Christian) variety that firmly believes that people are born inherently "bad" or even "wicked." They teach their children this and influence them from the earliest age. Group 2 consists of another variety that firmly believes that people are born inherently good and that there are other reasons not related to "original sin", genes or whatever that cause them to become bad. They, too teach their children this philosopy. Group 3 consists of, let's say atheists who are ambivalent about this issue and teach their children that they should do what they feel they have to do, without regards to consequences after this life.

  I added another group and chose it.

  Group 4 consists of another group of people that believes that people are born with the potential (the reality) to sin. At the point where the infant realizes that he has a choice, sin (mistakes) begin. The parents teach by example.

  I guess the only way to find out is to separate an infant from all humanity and see what happens. Give the necessities of life but for the most part leave him alone, so he doesn’t realize that other humans exist. Like Jim Carrie’s movie create an environment where the person is self-sufficient (or so he thinks)

  I imagine the greatest sin is selfishness.
• 

  peacefulpete

  Farkel is correct in saying that definitions are irrelevent for this discussion. The question was whether humans are inherently/congenitively disposed to a course. This is the nature verses nurture debate that modern sociologists and geneticists are embroiled in. Steven Pinker's new book, The Modern Denial of Human Nature, is an excellent source of info on the newest findings and how this effects our understanding of what being human really means.
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  sf

  All babies are born perfect, and all humans including me (shudder that thought!) Hitler were or are perfect.

  I was NOT born 'perfect'. I was born flawed.

  Just as was this thread you cleverly disguised as 'good'.

  sKally
• 

  sf

  Anyone notice how people with agendas are braindead when it comes to the core...

  Oh yes. And how!

  Hey Fark, just what WAS your [ original ] agenda when hitting the submit button?

  sKally
• 

  sf

  I keep thinking this over now, and it would beg the question:

  Are humans, born with congenital birth defects, born 'good' (perfect) or 'bad' (evil)?

  Would ANYTHING be 'able', as opposed to DISabled, change this...either way? If so, what?

  sKally, it would seem, evil slave klass
• 

  azaria

  I believe that people in general are born "good" and will grow up being good. I cannot prove this, though, except emperically, and that is not enough.

  If you believe that most people are good you are deluding yourself; if you think the opposite of evil is good. Yes most people are good but not by the way you define good. In Psalms 146? (for those that do believe in God) we are fearfully and wonderfully made. I like to believe that babies are born good with the potential to be good, but realistically that doesn't happen.

  Okay: perfect/unevil-God, evil/imperfect-Satan, HumanBeings/capable of being good,bad,evil, but not perfect

  Yes I do believe in God and I do believe that He is perfect. I don’t delude myself into thinking that I’m smarter than Him.

  I'm a logical guy, and I can smash any argument that is specious, or that expects people to accept a definition in an argument/question because MOST people accept that definition. Often enough, MOST people are wrong.

  I cannot prove this, though, except emperically, and that is not enough.

  Somehow I find these comments rather contradictory. You say you can smash any argument that lacks any merit and then further down you say you can’t prove what you say because of your own experiences. It really comes down to what you personally believe and you Farkel just have an opionion like everyone else, not necessarily based on fact. Maybe I’m kind of dense; please enlighten me.

  I personally believe that in a sense it is truly simple. We humans like to make it complicated. Maybe it makes us think that we are more intelligent than we really are. Yes I like a heated debate but you seem to think that somehow that you are intellectually superior to anyone else here on this board and I’m sure in the real world also. I somehow think that you are in pain and struggling with the answers like everyone else here. But please don’t be so condescending. Am I reading you wrong; if so I apologize; but I don’t think I am. Please don’t check my grammar and spelling. Yes I am a bit annoyed the past few days and maybe I’m just taking it out on you. Oh by the way, at work last Saturday I was listening to Ave Maria by Schubert and thought about you. Being a Schubert fan you can’t be all bad. I just wish you would show that side of yourself more often.
• 

  micheal

  If I had to choose I would say people are born with a stronger tendancy to do good. One reason I say this, think about how we react when something evil/horrible takes place. It disturbs us. No matter how often we hear about people who were murdered, it makes us feel bad, we feel instant stress. We still, after hearing thousands of reports of horrible things happen to people, feel shocked. It still feels abnormal, unnatural to us.

  Yet when someone does something good, whether to ourselves or to someone else, it doesn't provide the same level of intesity to us. It is something that is almost expected. For example if our hands are full and someone ahead of us doesn't hold the door for us, the disturbance we would feel is much greater than the thankfullness we would feel if someone did.

  If we were to say that people are born with a stronger tendancy to do evil, then evil things wouldn't shock us or disturb us that much. But that just isn't the case.