Former Elders, a Question

StinkyPantz

I have always been unclear as to why I was disfellowshipped. I had my judicial meetings because I was dating a "worldly" guy. I assume this because they never said I was "formally charged" with anything. I never admitted to having any form of sex with him, nor any type of fondling. They read me some scriptures about becoming unevenly yoked, etc. and then told me to leave while they deliberated. When they ushered me back into the room, they said that they had one question before announcing their decision. One elder (who was like a father to me), was bawling! He was even shaking his head "no" as he looked at his lap. I am sure that he was out-voted. So, the question was: will you break up with Jon? I had seriously considered lying. I figured I could hide my relationship, then go get married, and all would be okay; but since I had begun my research into the history of the WT, I knew that I could never be happy as a JW. So, I told them that I would not break up with Jon, because our courtship was heading towards marriage, I loved him.

After this, they sent me out again for about 3 minutes. When I re-entered they told me that because my behavior (what behavior?) could stumble others, and I was disfellowshipped.

A little history about me. Before this I was quite active. Auxiliary pioneered summers, never been reproved or reprimanded. So I didn't have a bad name; I didn't have past reproofs affecting their decision.

----

So this is what I now what to know. Is it possible for me to get a copy of the papers that say exactly why I was disfellowshipped. I'd really like to know. Also, is my right to the papers legally enforceable? If so, how should I go about requesting them (any tips)?

Gopher

SP,

I never was an elder (thank your favorite deity or other item). However, having had my own run-ins with judicial committees, I believe the proper protocol is to tell you exactly what the reason is, even if it is just one word such as "fornication" or "lying" or "stealing" or whatever it is. I'm surprised they left you clueless in this way. (Edited to add -- when they read you the series of scriptures at the time the decision is announced, those scriptures are supposed to have a direct bearing on the reason ~~they're kicking you to the curb~~ for the judicial action.)

You could contact the chairman of the committee and tell them you'd like to know. (That is, do it if you can stomach the thought of re-initiating contact with these people.) Even the most anal-retentive elder should agree that you have a right to know why you were DF'd.

In my case the charge was "lying", although they didn't tell me exactly what lies I had told. Someone called me a liar and they just "went with it", because they had no hard evidence of other charges such as fornication (because no such evidence could have existed, I didn't do that!).

It amazes me that they can dismiss you without even telling you why. But then the rumors go around behind your back about what a bad person you are, and even you don't know exactly what you are charged with.

And HAVE NO DOUBT -- dating outside "the truth", while seriously discouraged by JW's, is not in itself a DF'ing offense. Perhaps they "assumed" you were fornicating with your then-boyfriend.

It seems like elders on committees ASSUME a lot. It is a time-saving shortcut, so that they can get back to their wives, family and TV-watching.

Gadget

I remember being told that there only ever one reason for being DF'd, for not loving Jehovah enough. You can end up in a jc for many reasons but its purely your conduct and responses in the jc which dictate whether you are DF'd or Reproved. Of course there been testimonies on here where people have been told BEFORE their jc that they were getting DF'd, so this can go out the window, but if one of the elders was very upset after the decision I can't see him letting the others pull this off in your case. I was never an elder or anything else, but this is how I understood it.

Gadget

smack

Talk to the one that was like an uncle to you. Ask nicely and see what happens.

I can't help, cos the clan in Aus probably have different rules, being further from Brooklyn. I could ask my dad if you

want, cept he hasn't been an elder for probably 20 years.

Steve

yxl1

When I re-entered they told me that because my behaviour could stumble others, and I was disfellowshipped.

As far as these elders were concerned, you are putting your relationship with a worldly person before Jehovah. This is not the reason you have been disfellowshipped. I imagine they have used you as an example in an attempt to prevent others from following your path. To my knowledge there is no published ruling for disfellowshipping someone because of a non-sexual relationship with a non-Jehovahs witness. If you enquire to the reason you have been disfellowshipped, the elders will state that your relationship with this man was not the reason you were disfellowshipped, but it was because of your attitude. This seems to be a favourite, used when there is no biblical or even WatchTowerical reason for removing someone. It is impossible for an appeal comittee to judge facts when the reasons are based on the "attitude" of someone. In which case, they will always return in favor of the local elders.

Check out http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm for the following quote:

If, however, someone unrepentantly practices serious sins, such as drunkeness, stealing or adultery, he will be disfellowshipped and such an individual is avoided by former fellow-worshipers. Every effort is made to help wrongdoers. But if they are unrepentant, the congregation needs to be protected from their influence. The Bible clearly states: 'Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.' (1 Corinthians 5:13)

Its good to see that “every effort is made to help wrongdoers”. How long did they deliberate your case? 3 minutes. Ah, the loving care of Jehovah’s earthly organization always leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy inside!

yxl1

teejay

>>>> Is it possible for me to get a copy of the papers that say exactly why I was disfellowshipped.

Yes, it's possible. It's also possible that you will win the lottery. Possible, but not bloody likely. Getting your papers is basically a matter of how strong the moral center is of the men who df'd you. From what you've said, I don't like your chances.

is my right to the papers legally enforceable?

Prolly not. When it comes to how religious entities deal with its membership (with the possible exception of pedophilia), the courts have consistently demonstrated a strong reluctance to having any sort of involvement.

If so, how should I go about requesting them (any tips)?

Hire an attorney and contact the elders through her/him.

Edited to add: I'd like to amend my suggestion to say that I agree with smack. Nicely ask one of the elders (preferably the "father" type) if you could get a copy (or at least the reason they kicked you out) and when they tell you to get lost (in a Christian way, of course) THEN hire an attorney. Frankly, I wouldn't give a rat, but that's me.

StinkyPantz

yxl1-

Yeah they told my mom it was because of my attitude; but I told them that I still wanted to "serve Jehovah" and be a JW, so how could they justify their decision?

Maverick

The catch all is showing or not showing a repentant attitude. This is often determined by how reverently you treat the jc. They feel, by extension your fear of them proves your fear, or lack of it, of Jehovah and His organization. You didn't grovel and plead, or cry. This shows your hard-heartedness! They need that fear as a control. Your spiritual life is of lesser value to their control over the flock. As for getting any written records...good luck! They will stone-wall you and lie to you until you give up! Maverick

smack

I'm glad you are out tho. Much more fun here

Steve

rocketman

Hi SP,

Their decision to disfellowship you was groundless even by their own standards. However, as already mentioned,. legal action on your part stands little chance of success, since courts are loathe to get involved.

You could argue perhaps defamation of character, because again, even by their own standard, you did nothing worthy of an announcement and shunning. But again, I doubt this would work legally. They've gone to great lengths to make sure of that.

The best bet may be to try talking to the elder who seemed sympathetic. Getting in touch with the local CO could help too. But, since the window of appeal has closed, you won't get anything reversed decsion - wise.

Former Elders, a Question

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