please, for the delay in responding... and may you all have peace!
Yeru and 'Gumb... peace to you both and no offense taken, truly. Sometimes it's exciting stuff... sometimes not so exciting. I absolutely understand.
Dearest LT, the greatest of peace to you, too... and please forgive ME: I was getting sick during the last fews days of posting (versus concerning myself about the "attacks")... and well, I guess I got a bit over-sensitive. I obviously misread your intent, which is easy to do on the Internet. I know this and should have known better. Unfortunately, that happens for me sometimes, when my illness gets the best of me; my judgment becomes a bit dull. Therefore, the apology is mine to give.
Regarding your questions:
New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to fill the whole of the new earth. Agreed. It was in this context that I meant that paradise was a combination of both. We may be using different language, but I believe we mean the same thing.
Cool!
Spirit bodies are not resurrected, physical bodies. I think we agree on this. However my conjecture is that some may already have "glorified" bodies, and are not numbered amongst those under the altar.
The only ones that I know of who have been "glorified", that is, received a "white robe" (spirit body)... is our Lord... and those under the altar. I am not aware of any others, truly.
Our Lord is already in this category, is he not, since he has already been resurrected? And yet, he is already in heaven.
Yes, he is. He was the One who opened up the way by going first.
Those that you "saw" on thrones - did they have wings?
I cannot say, dear LT... for I did not see wings. However, not seeing wings does not mean they're not there. For the first time I saw Michael, I did not see wings... until he "opened" them. And they covered quite a span (about 30 feet total, 15 each way - I think. Seemed like it.) But he also re-hid them again when he closed them. They do not look as we think... wings that... ummmm... stick out from behind, per se. For those that I have seen, the wings are not obvious until they are made obvious (i.e., by flight - yes, I have seen some fly - etc.) So, simply because I did not see wings does not mean the 24 didn't have them. That was not the point of the vision, so there were most probably many things I did not see.
How do you differentiate between them and the "multitudes" in the heavens (as a class)?
They actually are higher (in rank) than the multitudes. The multitudes are... gosh, I want to say "drones", if that makes sense. I mean, I know they are actually much more than that, but that's all I can think of to describe it.
How do they differ from those under the altar?
Actually, they don't, to some degree, for some of those that made up those under the altar, are those I saw. What I saw, however, was in the future... after the filling of the number of those "under the altar". For example, I saw John the Baptist, who was killed for the sake of the Christ and thus his spirit, although glorified (give a white robe) "rests" under the altar. But I did not see Stephen who was also killed for the sake of the Christ, who also rests under the altar. I saw only 24; however, there are MANY under the altar.
(NOTE: When I was taken in a vision to the world of the dead, I did not see those under the altar; however, I FELT their spirits and knew them to be in another place... just as I felt the spirits of those who WERE in the world of the dead but had no bones. I have not shared that vision here, but will now, briefly:
My Lord took me in a vision to a place that seemed to be in the earth... about three miles. At first I did not know where I was or what I was seeing. As the vision became clearer, the first thing I noticed were skulls. Many of them. As the vision grew clearer I saw that the skulls were attached to skeletons. At first, many of them. But as the vision grew clearer, it became apparent that there were zillions of them... heaps. In... like... caves... which went far back into the earth... as far as I could see.
They were also all the same color as the earth... a dust-gray. As the vision became clearer, I notices that the skulls were looking at me, staring, as if in expectation. I then realized that there were spirits in the bones... not enough to call "life"... just enough to ask the question "is this it/the time/what we're waiting for?"
The spirits did not know who they were, what they were or what they were waiting for. They did not know who or what I was. They only had enough life in them to know that they WERE waiting... for something... and for a flicker... just a brief flicker... they uniformly wondered if I was that "it". But just as quickly, they all realized that I was not "it", whatever the "it" was they were awaiting... which even they did not know... and so they returned to... well... sleep.
A couple things:
1. I "felt" not only the spirits there... but I also knew there were others... many, many others. I could FEEL them... in my bones. They were:
a. Others like these, but that had no bones to house their spirits (the spirit is in the bones), because of the bones having been burned... or?
b. Others that were not there in that place... but in some other place. I could not see that other place... but I could feel the "life" in the spirits there, as well.
2. I could not speak to these spirits/bones in front of me. There was a wide space between me and them, that I knew I could not cross... and I also knew somehow that I could not speak to them or ask anything of them. I don't know how I knew; I just knew. So, I didn't speak to them... I just kind of... watched them... as they watched me. And I listened. The only thing I "heard" was that "question" as regards whether I was what they were waiting for. However, it was not spoken... so much as it was... felt.
3. I also discerned that the spirits were male and female. I could not discern age (I am sure some were adult, others were not), but I could definitely tell that some were male and others were female. There was a DEFINITE difference in the "feel" of the spirit.
4. As I said, there were zillions... and they were all piled one on top of another, every which way. But... there was no pain... and there was no remembrance. Of anything. They did not remember who they were, where they had been, what they were, etc. There was not enough spirit in them to do so. The life that WAS there... was so minute... that it was barely a flicker. Just enough to stare at me a bit, "ask" the question and then return to... I don't know... sleep.
When I asked my Lord the purpose of the vision, it was because someone had asked and was distraught over what happens to the dead. What my Lord showed me was that NOTHING happens. They are not burning, or wailing, or walking about, or haunting things, or in pain or torture... or nothing. They are not wondering about here... and what's going on here... or speaking to us... or overlooking what's going on with us.
They are doing... nothing. Except waiting. They sleep and wait... and occasionally are awaken by the presence of someone, just enough to ask if the "time" (for what they do not know) has come, if what they are waiting FOR... has arrived. That's it; that's all.
And I shared this vision publicly, and the one wanting to know was included.
Anyway... I must go finish my response to dear Ellderwho... and then lay down - I am starting to feel a bit "peaky" again.
The greatest of love and peace to you, dear LT!
YOUR servant and a fellow slave of Christ,
SJ
