plmkrzy....Sorry for being too brief, but I was not sure it was what you were looking for as an answer to your original question. To answer your last question, Yes, the priestly authors and editors of the OT did create a pseudo-history (weaving real history and legend) that painted the nation as wayward and desparately needing spiritual coaching (with themselves as the coaches of course). Yet the intent of the original Jesus stories was not a condemnation of the Jewish cult or people, rather just an extention of it. The NT as it appears today is a confusing blend of Jewish propadanda with anti Jewish mystery cult theology. Evidence suggests that later editors (2nd/3rd centuries)of the stories extensively reworked the verbal (or possibly early written) stories and legends into a narrative that sought to unite the various Jesus cults and at the same time credit the new Messiah with predicting the end of the Temple. The standard explanation for such a tragedies of the past (OT) was that the people had offended YHWH and needed to be punished. The same was offered as the reason for YHWH's ultimate abandonment of the Jewish religion altogether.(ie.they had failed Him). The abundant variations of the Jeus legends like those still extent in non-canonical Christian books are no less and no more "true" than those that were included by the Roman Church Fathers in the NT Canon.
Whats wrong with this picture?
by plmkrzy 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
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bluesapphire
Pete, this is very interesting. Can you recommend some titles? I would love to get more in depth information. Thanks.
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peacefulpete
Blue......Your request is difficult to easily respond to. The field is very specialized. I am not some great scholar mind you but it has been a project I've been involved with for a few years now. The newest proposals of Christianity's origin are not popular, in fact even in the secular world the ideas are considered too radical. No doubt some of it is. The question of the very existance of a single personage named Jesus is a hotly debated one. The idea is not as crazy as it first appears when the whole study of religious history is considered. If this interests you, try going to Peter Kirby's site called www.didjesusexist.com or something like that. He reviews the arguements objectively.IMO The site www.radikalkritic.de explains the long suspected role that the Roman Church played in creating the NT. (the link doesn't work for some reason so try a word search 'radical critic textural') A good scholarly book that expounds the religious environment present at the birth of Christianity is, The Beginning of Christianity: Essene Mystery,Gnostic Revelation & the Christian Vision by Andrew Welburn.
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peacefulpete
Aktuelle Artikel Bücher Rezensionen Klassiker Biographien Links Meinung E n g l i s c h e N i e d e r l ä n d i s c h e F r a n z ö s i s c h e Beiträge Neue Website: Critica Radicale del Nuovo Testamento - Fabrizo Palestini Seit 22. August 03 : Kritische Anfragen zum "Gefälschten Paulus" - Briefwechsel Pfr. Carl Beleites - Dr. Hermann Detering G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga: Die paulinischen Briefe. Aus dem Niederländischen übersetzt von Frans-Joris Fabri, Berlin 2003 -pdf
RadikalkritikBeiträge zur Radikalen Kritik der frühchristlichen Geschichte Texte - Materialien - Perspektiven
De omnibus dubitandum
© Hermann Detering, Berlin - letzte Änderung September 2003
Was ist Radikalkritik?
Trotz aller Anstrengungen der historischen Kritik in den letzten 200 Jahren liegen die Anfänge des Christentums immer noch im dunkeln. Auch die moderne Forschung hat es nicht vermocht, dieses Dunkel wesentlich zu erhellen. Das Bild der frühchristlichen Geschichte, das sie uns vermittelt, erscheint heute widersprüchlicher und verwirrender denn je.
Dabei betreffen die Widersprüche und Unklarheiten nicht nur unwichtige Randbereiche der Forschung, sondern ihren Kern. So sind im Hinblick auf die Gestalt des Paulus entscheidende Fragen immer noch ungeklärt: Welches ist das Zentrum der paulinischen Theologie? Welche Stellung hat Paulus gegenüber Gesetz und Judentum? Mit welchen Gegnern setzt sich Paulus in seinen Schriften auseinander? >> weiter
Despite all efforts of historical criticism during the past two centuries, the origins of Christianity remain hidden in deep darkness. Even modern research has not been successful in throwing full light upon them. According to Radical Criticism, this is due to the fact that the decisive presuppositions of previous work on the history of early Christianity have never been questioned methodically. This is true especially for the supposed genuineness of important documents of early Christianity as, for example, the Ignatian letters, 1 Clement and all of Paul’s Epistles. Radical Criticism has shown that their genuineness has by no means been firmly established. Nor can the human Jesus of Nazareth as a figure of history be regarded as a self-evident basic assumption.
Following the footsteps of the German critic Bruno Bauer and of the Dutch Radical School (W.C. Van Manen, G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga), Radical Criticism tries to excavate the roots of early Christanity without any ecclesiastical or ideological bias.NEW: Read the following introduction by
Klaus Schilling: Klaus Schilling : A survey: Van den Bergh van Eysinga, 2003Arthur Drews (1865 – 1935)
Abgesehen von Bruno Bauer und Albert Kalthoff gehört der Karlsruher Philosoph Arthur Drews zu den bekanntesten deutschen Bestreitern der Existenz eines historischen Jesus. Nach dem Erscheinen seines Buches: "Die Christusmythe" (1909) kam es zu heftigen öffentlichen Kontroversen. Albert Schweizer hat den von Drews aufgestellten Thesen in seiner "Geschichte der Leben-Jesu-Forschung" (1913) ein ganzes Kapitel gewidmet.Heute ist die "Christusmythe" in Deutschland - anders als in den angelsächischen Ländern, in denen noch immer eine Übersetzung (The Christ Myth) auf dem Markt ist - weithin in Vergessenheit geraten. Über den Verfasser weiß kaum jemand etwas.
Dr. Bernhard Hoffers ist den Spuren des umstrittenen Verfassers der "Christumythe" nachgegangen. I n seinem Vortrag bemüht er sich um eine gerechte Würdigung des umstrittenen Karlsruher Gelehrten, "sine ira et studio".
Englische Zusammenfassung von Klaus Schilling auf Michael Hoffmans's website
G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga
Neue Online-Texte (niederländisch) - ab Mai 2003Leeft Jezus - of heeft hij alleen maar geleefd? Een Studie over het dogma der historiciteit(pdf) Arnhem – 1930
Außerchristliche Zeugnisse für die
Existenz Jesu?GW S VI S. 36-56, 1949 GETUIGENISSEN AANGAANDE
JEZUS BUITEN HET NIEUWE TESTAMENTDas Christentum - eine Mysterienreligion?
GW S VI S. 3-22, 1950 HET CHRISTENDOM ALS MYSTERIEGODSDIENST (pdf)
Hinweis auf Yahoo! -Diskussionsgruppe:
JesusMysteries · Explore the question, "Was Jesus an historical figure?" Laypersons and Scholars are welcome to present views.
A discussion of the ideas in such recently published books as, The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy; The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? by Earl Doherty; and, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography and The Birth of Christianity by John Dominic Crossan.
Also raised are relevant ideas in works by authors Paula Fredriksen, G. A. Wells, Robert M. Price, Elaine Pagels, Stevan Davies, Darrell Doughty, Burton Mack, Alvar Ellegard, Marcus Borg, John P. Meier, Hermann Detering, Robert Eisenman, John S. Kloppenborg, et al.
One of the main attractions in asking the controversial question, "Was Jesus historical?" is the engagement in an intriguing, interesting, and investigative challenge to become better informed. We're doing detective work, examining the historical record, discovering evidence, researching, gathering clues from each other, marshalling and weighing evidence, sorting, assessing, trying to synthesize. JesusMysteries is an ongoing *historical* inquiry and not a religious one--do not post messages of an apologetic nature. Exploration of the widely varied theories is encouraged in your search for fact and truth. Articles, interviews, book reviews and other resources are provided in the extensive Bookmarks section to this community http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/links
Please feel free to join and interact and to express yourself courteously.
Welcome to everyone and enjoy!
Weitere Informationen siehe: Bücher
Joseph Turmel/Henri Delafosse (1859-1943): Der Brief an die Römer Einleitung und KommentarÜbersetzt von
Frans-Joris FabriDer unter 14 (!) verschiedenen Pseudonymen schreibende Abbé (Henri Delafosse, Antoine Dupin etc.) gehört zweifellos zu den interessantesten und schillerndsten Gestalten des französischen "Modernismus". Nach eigenem Bekunden hatte er den katholischen Glauben bereits 1886 verloren; gleichwohl tat er alles, um ihn nach außen zu verteidigen. 1910 leistete er den Antimodernisteneid, 1930 wurde er durch die excommunicatio maior aus der Kirche ausgeschlossen.
In seinem Kommentar zum Römerbrief erweist sich Turmel als brillanter Exeget. Obschon er am historischen Paulus festhält, hat er ein untrügliches Gespür für die verschiedenen Briefschichten, insbesondere für den großen Anteil marcionitischer Passagen, die er freilich für sekundär hält. Die Spannungen und Widersprüche werden. präzise erkannt und scharfsinnig gelöst. Eine Reihe von Beobachtungen deuten sicher darauf hin, daß viele Abschnitte des Briefes nur vor dem Hintergrund der theologischen Diskussion des 2. Jahrhunderts angemessen verstanden werden können. (Osterfeststreit!).
Das faszinierende Buch wurde jetzt erstmals von Frans-Joris Fabri ins Deutsche übersetzt. DER BRIEF AN DIE RÖMER (Kommentar)
TEXT
Den Text des französischen Originals finden Sie hier:
L'ÉPITRE AUX ROMAINS (Introduction et notes) TRADUCTION
Mehr über Joseph Turmel: Biographisch-Bibliographisches Kirchenlexikon Weitere Werke von Joseph Turmel auf D.J. Mahars ausgezeichneter, inhaltsreicher Marcion-Website (in englischer Übersetzung)Adversus Marcionem, Buch V - jetzt online!
D as 5. Buch des großen antimarcionitischen Werkes Adversus Marcionem aus der Feder des lateinischen Kirchenvaters Tertullian († ca. 220 n.) ist bis heute die wichtigste Quelle für die Rekonstruktion der marcionitischen Version der Paulusbriefe. Nach der lateinischen Fassung der beiden ersten Bücher wurde nun von Roger Pearse auch das 5. Buch (auf der Grundlage der Ausgabe von Ernest Evans, Oxford 1972) ins Netz gestellt. Ein Besuch der ungemein materialreichen Tertullian-Homepage ist sehr zu empfehlen!
© 2000-2003 Hermann Detering
Hermann Detering
Der Gefälschte Paulus
Das Urchristentum im Zwielicht, 1995 (pdf-Version)
Die html-Version zum Herunterladen! Doherty's "Jesus-Puzzle"
in deutscher
ÜbersetzungEarl Dohertys "Jesus-Puzzle"
ist in diesem Jahr im Angelika Lenz-Velag in deutscher Übersetzung erschienenHerkules - Melqart auf der Stele von Bre g
Hercules - Christus
In seinem Aufsatz aus dem Jahre 1947 weist G.A. van den Bergh van Esinga auf zahlreiche interessante Parallelen zwischen der mythologischen Gestalt des Herakles/Herkules und Christus hin.
Das Interesse am Hercules - Christus-Aufsatz ist nach wie vor groß. Schon seit langem gehört er zu den am häufigsten abgerufenen Texten dieser Website. Jetzt liegt erstmals eine deutsche Übersetzung vor. Sie stammt - wie so viele andere Übersetzungen dieser Seite - wieder einmal von Frans-Joris Fabri. Herzlichen Dank!
Zur deutschen Version (pdf) Frans-Joris FabriG. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga: Hercules - Christus Godsdienstwetenschappelijke Studi ë n I, 1947 (pdf)
Den lat. Text der von van den Bergh van Eysinga besprochenen Tragödie "Hercules Oetaeus" finden Sie hier.
G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga
Radikalkritische "Einleitung" in die Paulusbriefe
In seinem Werk "De Oudste Christelijke Geschriften" aus dem Jahre 1946 gibt G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga einen kurzen Überblick über die Ergebnisse der radikalkritischen Erforschung der "Paulusbriefe". Eine radikalkritische "Einleitung", die den neuesten Stand der Forschung berücksichtigt, ist bisher leider immer noch ein unerfülltes Desiderat.
G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga: Brieven (OCG - Den Haag 1946) - in niederländischer Sprache
Zur "Echtheit" des
1. ClemensbriefesOnderzoek naar de Echtheid van Clemens' eersten brief aan de Corinthiers - PDF-File G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga - Leiden 1908 - niederländisch
Gustaaf Adolf
van den Bergh
van Eysinga und die
radikale SchuleV ortrag von Dr. Hermann Detering - gehalten am 21. Juni 2001 an der Universität Amsterdam (Oost-Indisch Huis) auf dem Kongress zum Thema: De Geschiedenis van Theologie en Godsdienstwetenschap aan het Athenaeum Illustre en de Universiteit van Amsterdam, veranstaltet von der Commissie Geschiedschrijving UvA, Dr. P.J. Knegtmans, Dr. Peter van Rooden (UvA).
Ehrengrab fürBruno Bauer(1809-1882)
L aut Beschluss des Berliner Senats Nr. 224/01 vom 21. August 2001 ist die Grabstätte von Bruno Bauer für zunächst 20 Jahre als Ehrengrabstätte anerkannt worden. Der Bezirk Neukölln ist gebeten worden, für die ständige Betreuung der Grabstätte zu sorgen. HD
Marcions Galaterbrief für BibleWorks 5
Für alle Anwender von BibleWorks 5 besteht ab jetzt die Möglichkeit, die von Hermann Detering rekonstruierte Marcionitische Version des Galaterbriefes herunterzuladen und als eigenständige Text-Database in Bibleworks 5 zu integrieren.Es existiert sowohl eine Text- als auch eine morphologische Version.
Textversion MAT (mat.vmf - mat.ddf - mat.cat)
Morphologische Version: MAM (mat.vmf - mat.ddf - mat.cat)
Zu einer Version gehören jeweils drei Dateien, die
1. entzippt, 2. in das BW 5-Verzeichnis "userdb" kopiert und
3. installiert werden müssen ("Install after compiling" - im Version Database-Compiler).Für die Texte gilt das Copyright
© 2003 Hermann Detering -
peacefulpete
I don't know why it is so hard to find this site using a word search but I was unsuccessful. I hope that none objects to my posting here the home page of the site so that if you want to read what is there you can save it somehow. I am not computer literate.
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plmkrzy
Thank you pete for you input, it is very interesting. Thanks for the links as well.
Married intercourse is chaste and lawful. It does not mean that they were celebate.
Loris
Loris, wasn't the reference to Mary being chaste different then being chaste as a general rule because Mary was supposed to be giving birth to the Christ child and there could be absolutely no confusion in that regard. If she had intercourse with her husband then there would be obvious conflict. Not only that but she would not be a "virgin" If God was going to impregnate a woman with his seed it is unlikely it would be in a woman who had the remains of the presence of another man lingering. If you get my meaning.
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Yerusalyim
Loris, wasn't the reference to Mary being chaste different then being chaste as a general rule because Mary was supposed to be giving birth to the Christ child and there could be absolutely no confusion in that regard.
I don't think the bible says Mary was chaste. But Loris is correct, chaste as used here doesn't mean NO SEX only that the sex was licit to the marriage. Another point...The Nativity of Mary is not scripture.
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plmkrzy
Thanks for that yer, but it still does not address the point with regard to weather or not Mary was impregnated by God or by her husband. So the point I made is relivant more so with regard to the story of Jesus then the dictonaries definition of the word chaste. Unless you believe that Mary is the mother of Christ and was impregnated by God while having intercorse with her husband.
Maybe that is where the "trinity" come in, they were a threesome.
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peacefulpete
Boy do I feel silly, I did not read the excerpt from the Nat. of Mary carefully. I mistook the phrase to be about Christians not the "Holy Family". It is worth noting yet tho that the virgin birth element was added to the Jesus legends posibly as late as the 3rd century. Altho it is more likely earlier. The Gospel of Mark does not contain it. Mark is traditionally viewed as the ealiest of the Gospels(in it's original form which was described as an "unordered" compilation in letters by Church Fathers). Nor do the Pauline (real or not) Epistles suggest a virgin birth, rather the opposite. He is said to have simply come "born of a woman" without any further explanation of a miracle of virgin birth. The Gnostics and Marcionites (early sects of Christians)refused the teaching and railed it as an uninspired fraud. Bishop John Spong has written an easy to read book that describes his reasons for not accepting the virgin birth tale among other things. The book is called, "Born of Woman".
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AGuest
except our view of whom it is speaking about. Peace to you!
Unfortunately, you have done what many do... mistakenly, of course... and that is misrender something. The following is what the account TRULY says:
"CHAP. 1.--The blessed and glorious ever-virgin Mary, sprung from the royal stock and family of David, born in the city of Nazareth, was brought up at Jerusalem in the temple of the Lord. Her father was named Joachim, and her mother Anna. Her father's house was from Galilee and the city of Nazareth, but her mother's family from Bethlehem. Their life was guileless and right before the Lord, and irreproachable and pious before men. For they divided all their substance into three parts. One part they spent upon the temple and the temple servants; another they distributed to strangers and the poor; the third they reserved, for themselves and the necessities of their family. Thus, dear to God, kind to men, for about twenty years they lived in their own house, a chaste married life, without having any children. Nevertheless they vowed that, should the Lord happen to give them offspring, they would deliver it to the service of the Lord; on which account also they used to visit the temple of the Lord at each of the feasts during the year.
"CHAP. 2.--And it came to pass that the festival of the dedication[1] was at hand; wherefore also Joachim went up to Jerusalem with some men of his own tribe. Now at that time Issachar[2] was high priest there. And when he saw Joachim with his offering among his other fellow- citizens, he despised him, and spurned his gifts, asking why he, who had no offspring, presumed to stand among those who had; saying that his gifts could not by any means be acceptable to God, since He had deemed him unworthy of off-spring: for the Scripture said, Cursed is every one who has not begot a male or a female in Israel.[3] He said, therefore, that he ought first to be freed from this curse by the begetting of children; and then, and then only, that be should come into the presence of the Lord with his offerings. And Joachim, covered with shame from this reproach that was thrown in his teeth, retired to the shepherds, who were in their pastures with their flocks; nor would he return home, test perchance he might be branded with the same reproach by those of his own tribe, who were there at the time, and had heard this from the priest.
CHAP. 3.--Now, when he had been there for some time, on a certain day when he was alone, an angel of the Lord stood by him in a great light. And when he was disturbed at his appearance, the angel who had appeared to him restrained his fear, saying: Fear not, Joachim, nor be disturbed by my appearance; for I am the angel of the Lord, sent by Him to thee to tell thee that thy prayers have been heard, and that thy charitable deeds have gone up into His presence.[4] For He hath seen thy shame, and hath heard the reproach of unfruitfulness which has been unjustly brought against thee. For God is the avenger of sin, not of nature: and, therefore, when He shuts up the womb of any one, He does so that He may miraculously open it again; so that that which is born may be acknowledged to be not of lust, but of the gift of God. For was it not the case that the first mother of your nation--Sarah--was barren up to her eightieth year?[5] And, nevertheless, in extreme old age she brought forth Isaac, to whom the promise was renewed of the blessing of all nations. Rachel also, so favoured of the Lord, and so beloved by holy Jacob, was long barren; and yet she brought forth Joseph, who was not only the lord of Egypt, but the deliverer of many nations who were ready to perish of hunger. Who among the judges was either stronger than Samson, or more holy than Samuel? And yet the mothers of both were barren. If, therefore, the reasonableness of my words does not persuade thee, believe in fact that conceptions very late in life, and births in the case of women that have been barren, are usually attended with something wonderful. Accordingly thy wife Anna will bring forth a daughter to thee, and thou shall call her name Mary: she shall be, as you have vowed, consecrated to the Lord from her infancy, and she shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from her mother's womb. She shall neither eat nor drink any unclean thing, nor shall she spend her life among the crowds of the people without, but in the temple of the Lord, that it may not be possible either to say, or so much as to suspect, any evil concerning her. Therefore, when she has grown up, just as she herself shall be miraculously born of a barren woman, so in an incomparable manner she, a virgin, shall bring forth the Son of the Most High, who shall be called Jesus, and who, according to the etymology of His name, shall be the Saviour of all nations. And this shall be the sign to thee of those things which I announce: When thou shalt come to the Golden gate in Jerusalem, thou shalt there meet Anna thy wife, who, lately anxious from the delay of thy return, will then rejoice at the sight of thee. Having thus spoken, the angel departed from him."
The account was not speaking of Mary, the flesly mother of my Lord, and her husband, Joseph... and the conception of my Lord. It was speaking of the father and mother of Mary... with regard to the conception... of Mary.
There are two other important points that this account brings out:
1. That it is not apart of the Bible canon, yet those who put their faith in such canon conclude that all that has been written IS included there; and
2. This account, while containing some truth, also contains at least one falsehood: Mary was not an "ever-virgin", simply by reason of the FACT that she had other children.
Dear ones, if you are going to put your faith in what is written... or, alternatively, if you are going to DISPUTE what is written... you should have CLEAR knowledge and understanding... of... what is written.
I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Was ist Radikalkritik?
Trotz aller Anstrengungen der historischen Kritik in den letzten 200 Jahren liegen die Anfänge des Christentums immer noch im dunkeln. Auch die moderne Forschung hat es nicht vermocht, dieses Dunkel wesentlich zu erhellen. Das Bild der frühchristlichen Geschichte, das sie uns vermittelt, erscheint heute widersprüchlicher und verwirrender denn je.
Abgesehen von Bruno Bauer und Albert Kalthoff gehört der Karlsruher Philosoph Arthur Drews zu den bekanntesten deutschen Bestreitern der Existenz eines historischen Jesus. Nach dem Erscheinen seines Buches: "Die Christusmythe" (1909) kam es zu heftigen öffentlichen Kontroversen. Albert Schweizer hat den von Drews aufgestellten Thesen in seiner "Geschichte der Leben-Jesu-Forschung" (1913) ein ganzes Kapitel gewidmet.
