@Rocket: Context. Crowd.
All these procedures are qualified with “if situation permits” or “if reasonable”. What is reasonable is left up to the people in the situation.
Derek Chauvin - The Right to a Fair Trial
by Simon 240 Replies latest social current
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road to nowhere
Rocket
What about the unruly and possibly dangerous onlookers? They may have known from experience that cpr was theatrics
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Diogenesister
I understanding is that CPR was performed on Floyd en route and that "Load and Go" actually is the correct procedure
That’s because the chances of someone of surviving heart failure outside of a hospital environment are slim. Also I’m guessing in the ambulance they have a controlled and safe environment in which to focus on the patient, rather than what’s going on around them. I guess that’s especially true in some metropolitan areas, no? “Maintain a safe environment” is literally one of the priorities in patient care.
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Diogenesister
I heard a lot of people make that point. If someone says they can’t breathe, they are lying. If you can speak, you are moving air across your vocal chords. You can breathe.
No MMM, They’re not lying , they’re panicking. Not many untrained people in that situation are capable of being rational. I expect that’s kinda the point.
The damming evidence in this case is shown by the police's body cam footage when one officer goes to check for a pulse on Floyd's arm and says I dont get a pulse but all the officers there including Chauvin didn't make a motion to turn him over and try to resuscitate him.
I agree. In my view this is the most important point. It’s a question of professional negligence.
There’s a lot of people on this board that have strong feelings both ways about this case.
Would Floyd be alive today if he hadn’t been arrested, or had been arrested by someone else? Possibly, possibly not.
No one comes out of this looking good. Even though Floyd had done some illegal and stupid things, things that led to his arrest that day, the salient point is that whatever the rights and wrongs Derek Chauvin was paid to be the responsible one. Was supposedly trained to be the responsible one, too. A position he willingly took on. So personally I think he should be dishonourably discharged from his post and, given Floyds other issues, because I think it’s impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Derek Chauvin is guilty of Floyds murder, the victim’s family should sue Chauvin, and the other officers, for negligence in a civil court.
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MeanMrMustard
No MMM, They’re not lying , they’re panicking. Not many untrained people in that situation are capable of being rational. I expect that’s kinda the point.
A distinction without a difference in this case. If he can say he can’t breathe, panicked or not, he can still breathe.
But look, I agree at the point he was put on the ground, he was probably feeling panic. But that’s the problem with a criminal throwing every fake excuse out to avoid arrest - if there is real distress, it is that much less believable. Even before he was on the ground, he was saying he can’t breathe. It was all boy-who-cried-wolf to some extent.
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LoveUniHateExams
Here's another vid by Shapiro.
He's interviewing attorney Misty Marris, who's providing coverage of the trial.
The prosecution are bringing forth 3 charges:
1. Second degree murder
2. Third degree unintentional murder
3. Second degree manslaughter.
I think Chauvin will be acquitted on the first two charges, but found guilty on the manslaughter charge.
A poster made a point earlier in this thread that Chauvin could have stopped restraining Floyd after Floyd was handcuffed and lying on the floor. I think this is the only chance the prosecution have got with an unbiased jury, although Chauvin might even be acquitted of this charge.
Interesting …
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dozy
It's a jury trial so really it could go either way. Having sat on a jury myself for a criminal trial, I don't really have much faith in the process - at least half the guys in the jury I was involved in were either desperately inadequate , unbelievably dumb or totally lacking in any sensible judgement. Two of them basically slept or daydreamed through most of the week long trial. You honestly wouldn't have trust them to choose a best cake contest at the local village fete , let alone to objectively and professionally weigh up innocence or guilt in a criminal trial.
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Diogenesister
MMM But look, I agree at the point he was put on the ground, he was probably feeling panic. But that’s the problem with a criminal throwing every fake excuse out to avoid arrest - if there is real distress, it is that much less believable. Even before he was on the ground, he was saying he can’t breathe. It was all boy-who-cried-wolf to some extent.
It’s interesting at the moment if you look on Reddit or youtube there’s an absolute flood of arrest videos with police officers put in the most dangerous and impossible situations. Because much of it is body cam footage, I’m pretty sure it’s officers themselves posting it (or maybe supportive admin or I.T. staff) I think as you say it’s an attempt to show the public the sort of situations they face on a daily basis. Situations which lead human beings to start having to seriously start protecting themselves first and foremost if they want to survive their careers.
Even though I mention the 2% of sociopaths in probably all walks of life, including the police, I’m well aware that the majority of coppers do the best they can as you say in often impossible situations.
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joey jojo
Just thought Id post a couple of typical restraint and subject control technique videos.
These are exactly typical of how bouncers, law enforcement etc are taught.
Notice the knee in both cases is supposed to be across the shoulder and not on the neck. In practice, the knee almost always slides in behind the neck, its really hard to control, especially if the subject is resisting.
That's works great with a compliant partner, as in the video. Now imagine a big guy that needs to be restrained and is maybe getting out of control, or the cop is trying to make sure the subject doesn't get any ideas.
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Simon
Re: the ability to breathe or not, only someone who can't breathe can't talk, so someone who is talking can breathe and can breathe well enough that they are using that ability to talk instead of breathe.
It's a little like drowning - people don't drown like in the movies, splashing about and screaming for help. The reality is that people drown silently - there's many accounts where people trained to spot drowning have saved people who were very close to others (friends, parents etc) that were completely unaware of their predicament.
Don't forget, the police probably here "I can't breathe", "you're breaking my arm" and 101 other variations of fake claims 24x7.
The prosecution are bringing forth 3 charges:
1. Second degree murder
2. Third degree unintentional murder
3. Second degree manslaughter.Doesn't the charge of manslaughter in itself act as evidence that you don't believe it's murder? Throwing so many charges shows they lack confidence and it's for show as much as for justice - "look, he's being charged for MURDER! (but let's hope we can at least make a manslaughter charge stick)"
It's a jury trial so really it could go either way. Having sat on a jury myself for a criminal trial, I don't really have much faith in the process - at least half the guys in the jury I was involved in were either desperately inadequate , unbelievably dumb or totally lacking in any sensible judgement.
Jury trials are hit and miss and often it's left with people who aren't smart enough to get out of doing it. In this case I think there is a real danger that people put their own self interests ahead of the correct decision and weigh up the consequences of an acquittal even though that should not be of any consideration whatsoever.
Because much of it is body cam footage, I’m pretty sure it’s officers themselves posting it (or maybe supportive admin or I.T. staff) I think as you say it’s an attempt to show the public the sort of situations they face on a daily basis
It's telling that after all the claims that police should have to wear body cams, some people are now wanting it stopped because the reality is the cams often provide the evidence that it was the perps at fault / the police actions were justified (and often the impossible split second choices that have to be made).
Anyway, media found a new "hero" and people have someone else to riot and loot over, so they don't need this result as much as they did last week.
Funny how no one seemed to care or riot over the police abuse of the black army lieutenant, it's always some criminal type that it's about.