Wage discrepancies between the lower class with the upper class.

by William Penwell 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I Just watched Bill Moyer's, Now on PBS. I was wondering who else watched the program. It was dealing with the discrepancies between the lower class workers and the upper class executives. In the USA the difference is getting greater in the last 30 years. Executives in the USA take home pay is 475 times as much as factory floor workers pay. Compare this to other industrial countries like Canada where the differences is only 20 times as much or Britain at 22 times as much.

    http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/executive2.html

    http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/wages.html

    http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/datazone_fambud_budget

    Will

  • Gordy
    Gordy

    According to recent figures the "average" wage/salary in the United Kingdom is £24,000 per annum.

    I earn £16,000 p.a. what I want to know who has got my other £8,000.

  • Mutz
    Mutz

    All the people earning £250,000+ a year doing 'important' jobs like speculating on currencies and causing crises for whole nations have your eight grand mate. Perhaps if we ask nicely they'll give it back? :)

  • Fe2O3Girl
    Fe2O3Girl
    According to recent figures the "average" wage/salary in the United Kingdom is £24,000 per annum.

    I suppose it depends what "average" means. I suspect that in this case, it refers to the mean average, and the few extremely high salaries skew the figure. I also suspect that the mode salary band, the amount that most people earn, is somewhat lower.

    What is of more concern is how these salaries compare to what it costs to buy things. The average house price in the UK is now about £150,000. With a 10% deposit, that gives a mortgage of £135,000. At current (very low) interest rates, that would require a monthly payment of about £840. To borrow that much, even if the lender would give 4 times a borrower's salary, would require an income of over £33,000 per annum. So "average" salary will not buy an "average" home. That's assuming our average borrower has a £15,000 deposit, and these days he or she is more likely to have £15,000 credit card and personal loan debt.

    I used to think that these issues only affected people unfortunate enough to live in the South East of Britain, but it's happening up here in the beautiful North, too.

  • franklin J
    franklin J

    In the USA, especially in the North East; people are talking about approacing "Class wars" ( sounds like it is out of Star Wars)

    It appears that the population is slowly polarizing to rich and poor, and the middle class is being squeezed into non existence. On Long Island, New York, where I am posting from, the average home starts at approx $350,000 and up to several million, and one must be earning upwards of $60,000 minimum per household per year to even qualify for a mortgage ( and that will require 10-15% down payment) And do not forget the land taxes, averaging about $8-$10,000 per year, on top of your mortgage . What inevidably happens is that both parents are working. The cost of living here is so high, I do not know how people can afford to live here. Everyone ( well almost everyone) wants the suburban lifestyle with the excellent public school system for their kids. There is a huge demand and there has been a shortage of any kind of affordable housing and yet people just keep moving here and paying the high cost. And the cost of real estate keeps spiraling up. If you are rich, that is great, you will live very nicely. If you are middle class, you will be squeezed.

    It appears to be coming to "the haves and the have nots"

    Frank

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    franklin j

    They were saying on this program how more and more people are living the poverty level. Companies are lowering the minimum wages and that you were better off 30 years ago than you are now. Also there was a theologian on his show that was saying that he can see it coming to a point of civil disobedience.

    Will

  • elamona
    elamona

    First, let me say that I am a working class "peasant " so that no one here gets the idea that I am some kind of rich person. Next you are going to think that I am crazy or something, but I'm going to say it anyway. The 10th commandment says "You shall not covet (be jealously envious of , green with envy of) your neighbor's house, your neighbor's wife, or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Exodus 20:17. I realize that this is an old fashioned concept that people laugh at , and say is no longer valid, but I try to live by it (along with the other 9). I am not a particularly religious person, am not a JW any longer, but I try to live by the values that were instilled in me since I was a small child.

    Am I happy that some people seem to be insanely rich and most of the rest of us "second class citizens" have to struggle just to make ends meet? Of course not. But there are many, many reasons why some people are rich and others are not. Let's consider some of those reasons.

    Some people are willing to go to school for 10-15 years past the high school level. They have the ability and are willing to invest time, money, and themselves to become the doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. that they are. Most of them incur great debt financing their education and when they finally get to the "top", they start their occupations with a HUGE debt they have got to pay off. How many of YOU are willing to forgo just about everything to achieve your goal? If you think just any average joe can make a GREAT doctor (or lawyer) try picking your next specialist (let's say you need a neurosurgeon , cancer specialist, or a criminal defense lawyer) out of a hat which has random names, found in the phone book, written on a little sheet of paper. Does this instill confidence in you? Is your life worth the extra money it takes to hire someone who wants ( and needs) to make more money than the average person?

    Other people are born with natural abilities that they hone thruout their lives, forgoing everything else also, to become the the Michael Jordans, Brett Farves, etc of the sports world. WE make these people rich because WE voluntairly pay to see these people perform their "magic". WE sit in grandstands and front of the boob tube for unending hours cheering them on and buying sponsors products We make them the super rich superstars that they are. We love to be entertained and willingly pay to make these people rich. Don't like super-rich mega superstars? Don't WATCH and don't buy sponsors products. Simple as that.

    Other people work very hard(60 or more hours a week) building their own very small company into bigger and bigger ones over many years. When they reach the point where they are rich by the average person's standards they have probably earned barely the minimun wage if you divide the the amount of money they make by the total number of hours that they have invested in their company. We see the rich person. We do not see the man or woman who has worked 16 or more hours a day, 7 days a week for years and years. Are you willing to live the kind of life that that person had in the early years to be rich (I might add that there are NO guarantees either, that his/her investment in their business will be a success). If you are honest with yourself, most of us will say no. I tend to be a little lazy, like to have free time for myself and my family and am not very gung ho about anything, so I have to say no. More to come........

  • elamona
    elamona

    Continuation.....

    Some people are pleasing to look at, have nice voices and look good sitting behind a anchor desk(or on the silver screen) and sound intelligent because the stuff they are reading off the teleprompter or from a script (which is written by someone else most of the time) makes them APPEAR to be intelligent. They exude confidence in their own persons. They sign contracts with networks worth many, many millions of dollars a year because people who watch TV are usually faithful watchers who rarely change the channel when the news comes on. These people, the Bill Moyers, Peter Jennings and Mike Wallaces of the world, make gazillions of dollars because they have convinced the majority of people that they KNOW things that the average person doesn't, have gigantic field reporter staffs, great investigative staffs and are constantly harping on how unjust the world is , and how rich people are undeserving of all their wealth, except themselves, of course.Do you think that what they do is worth THAT kind of money for sitting in front of a desk for 2-3 hours a day? After all, the only real talents they have are the talents of, confidence, beauty and a great staff that does the homework and leg work for them and the ability to foster classs consciencousness and envy every chance they get .They are always pointing out how wrong it is to be the "evil rich"(doctors, lawyers and businessmen) as opposed to the "justly rich" (themselves and their fellow entertainers and those old monied families that fund the huge foundations that the journalists love). If you like to be constantly pumped full of propaganda about the evil unjust society we live in and how no one (except themselves ) should have more than anyone else then continue to watch them and join their class war. Maybe you will achieve the "justice" you think you deserve. Be warned though, the justice that you get is not always what you ask for.

    Lastly, there are people who have a talent for making money. They take chances investing OWN money is other people's ventures. They could (and many times do) lose everything because of poor investment choices. Sometimes they become fabulously wealthy because they "saw" something in someone else and their business and took a risk and put their own money into that business that paid off. Do they deserve to be wealthy? I think so. The product or service must be something many people want or need otherwise the company wouldn't make money, right?

    A subcategory of this investor is the kind of investor who knows the right people, has the right contacts, and gets the inside information that allows them to make huge amounts of money because they are essentially corrupt people who are willing to do anything to have money- lie, cheat, steal, kill,etc- including selling their soul. These people give all other investors bad names. Do you want to be this kind of person- wealthy but evil? Do you really want to be the kind of person that you hate?(You must hate them you are envious of WHAT they have, not HOW they got it) From just looking on the surface of things can you tell which investor is an honest person and which one is not?

    Wealth is a relative thing. Lets say the guy who lives down the block and makes $20,000 less a year than you . He thinks that he deserves to have what you have,so he breaks into your home, steals everything of wealth, kills your wife and demands that he not be punished for his crimes. Why? Because in his own eyes(and in the eyes of many of his friends) he was getting what he believed he justly deserved- (he didn't earn it, wouldn't work to get it, was lazy and uneducated,etc) and your wife happened to get in his way and wouldn't relinquish her property. Or let's say that he is so lazy that he hires some one else to do the crimes .Do you think that that person(s) should go to jail ?If you TRULY believe in the concept of social justice as espoused by most socialists( and many of you, from what I am reading) - that everyone should have the same and that no one should have any more than anyone else- then you could not convict him or his employee of anything because he saw an unjustness and acted on it- he was the "victim". You had something more than him, he envied you, he wanted it , so he took it. That IS the social justice and class justice that you are talking about here. Oh, the employee he hired? He was the politicians you vote for every time you vote for some one who promises to make the "rich" pay. He's the one with the gun at your head- demanding your money for the more "deserving" fellow down the block, the one who has less than you do.

  • elamona
    elamona

    BTW, I live in a paid for trailer on a small piece of land in the deep south (in the USA) where hardly anyone makes a lot of money. I guess I'm that "trailer park trash" that the great moralist Bill Clinton made famous. I raised my kids by myself because my husband left me when they were little. I went to college when I wasn't working and I have always worked 2 or 3 jobs and counted myself lucky that I could find work and feed my family. Now , in my older years, I only have one job.I try not to envy what other people have (sometimes I am guilty, especially when I see really nice homes with a pool and manicured lawn and all of the other great things that make life enjoyable), but at the same time I am truly glad that I don't have a large house note to pay on for 30 years(I could easily afford one now). I am thankful that I don't have to worry if I don't get to work a full week, like some of my coworkers are. It's all in what compromises you are willing to make in order to achieve the things in life that you want. Some things I am not willing to compromise on. Some things I do not want to put out the effort it takes to get it. I guess I am one of those misled peasants who is relatively content with the way my life is.

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I will agree with you that not everyone should be making the same amount of money because of skills or education. But let?s look at your arguments here. How can you justify an executive making 475 times as much as a factory worker makes, while that same factory worker isn't even above the poverty level!! Most workers can't even afford basic medical care!! Well the same time these fat cat employers are under cutting these workers wages and benefits more and more just so they show a bigger profit margins.

    The point you make about sports and movie personal is also getting out of hand. For instance, 50 or 60 years ago the average baseball player made something like 10 times as much money as the average working man. Now the discrepancy is something like about 100 times as much. I agree with you if you don't agree with what their paid, stop supporting it. That is why I have stopped supporting the over paid spoiled brats, some years ago. I don't begrudge anyone that makes this money but what makes me sick is when I hear some of them whining that they don't make enough money. They no longer are able to relate to the average working man.

    You talk about "the guy who lives down the block and makes $20,000 less a year than you . He thinks that he deserves to have what you have, so he breaks into your home, steals everything of wealth, kills your wife and demands that he not be punished for his crimes." Whets your point? I am not condoning this type of behavior as I have worked damn hard all my life for everything I have. I don't believe in taking from someone else to improve my life. I don't mind paying taxes as long as the money is going to better society as a whole and not going toward special interest groups or financing some political agenda/lies. But what about government bail out of the big corporations and their executives? It is no different than the example you gave. It is still theft, taking money out of our pockets.

    Again it?s not just a matter of the lower class wanting to live at the same level as the upper class but just be to be able to afford the basic needs. It is very nice that you don't mind taking it up the butt working and sweating your ass off while these fat cat executives are living in luxury off your sweat but most working people have had enough and it may get to a point of civil disobedience.

    Will

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