The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    1. "Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
    2. Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
    3. 12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
    4. Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.

    If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.

    The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".

    To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    " the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation."

    Agreed, but you are ignoring what the Writer makes plain, he expect ALL his predictions, and the fulfillment of his symbolic words, to come about "shortly", they did NOT, so are all failed Predictions.

    To expect a later fulfillment of already failed predictions is a very silly idea that many a Christian falls foul of.

    And I repeat :

    The idea of the "Great Apostasy" is a Myth.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5292170492248064/rumour-144-000-literal-number-teaching-abandoned-annual-meeting?page=9#/5982151082770432

    The Mosaic Law prescribed extracting a literal number out of the entire nation of dedicated Jews for the purpose of ministering in a specific assignment.

    The numbers "7" and "7" in the vision Joseph interpreted for Pharaoh during the years of plenty and the years of famine were literal even though the cows and grain were symbolic.

    The numbers "3" and "3" were literal in the vision Joseph interpreted for the baker and the cupbearer even though the cups and the baskets were figurative.

    The number of beasts in Daniel were sometimes literal and sometimes figurative depending on the context. "There are four beasts" was interpreted by the angel as "four kingdoms" and it was literal, including the "king of Greece" that the angel named.

    In Joseph's dream with the sun moon and 11 stars bowing down to him, the number "11" was literal and fulfilled when his 11 brothers bowed down to him in Egypt.

    Thus the idea that the number "144,000" must be figurative is based on a selective reading of the text that does not take into account the larger context and understanding of the scriptures, namely, the entire Bible.

    The Bible is clear that the number 144,000 is literal number who will come down out of heaven and minister on the earth, be seen by people here and work among them along with Jesus and Jehovah.

    And yet there are many so-called "Christians" - including some who are part of Watchtower and some who are against Watchtower - who teach apostasy from what the Bible says.

    The "Great Apostasy" goes on.

    (But not for much longer anyway.)

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons has long been a controversial and influential piece of anti-Catholic literature, particularly in certain Protestant and fundamentalist circles. Written in the 19th century, Hislop's central thesis is that Roman Catholicism is essentially a continuation of the ancient pagan religion of Babylon, which he claims is rooted in the worship of Nimrod and his wife Semiramis. Hislop contends that Catholic practices, symbols, and traditions are veiled forms of ancient Babylonian paganism. However, Hislop’s methodology, arguments, and conclusions have been widely discredited by modern scholars for their inaccuracies, leaps in logic, and the genetic fallacy they embody.

    Methodological Flaws in Hislop’s Work

    Hislop's approach in The Two Babylons can be characterized by several major methodological flaws. One of the most egregious is his reliance on cherry-picking and superficial parallels between Catholic practices and ancient pagan customs. Whenever he identifies any similarity, no matter how tenuous, Hislop jumps to the conclusion that the Catholic practice in question must be pagan in origin. This method is deeply flawed because it ignores the vast complexity of cultural and religious development. Hislop fails to recognize that similar customs can arise independently in different societies due to shared human experiences, rather than direct borrowing or influence. His central methodology, then, is predicated on the genetic fallacy—the erroneous assumption that the origin of something determines its current meaning or validity. Just because a Catholic symbol or practice may resemble something in ancient Babylon does not mean it is derived from or perpetuates that Babylonian tradition.

    For instance, Hislop famously asserts that the Catholic use of round communion wafers is a direct adoption of the sun-worship symbolism from ancient Egypt, simply because both objects are circular. This is an obvious instance of false analogy, as round shapes are ubiquitous across many cultures and contexts, with no inherent religious meaning attached to them. Biblical manna, for example, is described as round in Exodus 16:14-15, yet Hislop does not consider this when condemning the use of round wafers as pagan.

    In other cases, Hislop draws on dubious historical sources or misrepresents the sources he does cite. He often quotes historical records out of context, distorting their meaning to fit his predetermined conclusions. For example, Hislop connects the Egyptian goddess Isis and her son Horus with Semiramis and Tammuz, claiming that these figures share a direct lineage with later Catholic representations of Mary and Jesus. However, closer examination of Hislop’s references reveals that many of the sources he uses do not support these conclusions and are either mythological in nature or have been selectively quoted to bolster his argument.

    Inventing Associations: Nimrod and Semiramis

    Hislop's central thesis that the Catholic Church continues the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis rests on shaky historical foundations. Not only is there no credible evidence that Nimrod and Semiramis were worshipped as divine figures in the manner Hislop describes, but Semiramis herself is a legendary figure whose actual historical role is highly uncertain. She was likely a powerful Assyrian queen, but Hislop weaves a complex and speculative narrative around her, associating her with various goddesses from entirely different cultural traditions. He then proceeds to project these associations onto Catholic beliefs, creating a false genealogy of religious practices that have no historical basis. This process of creating connections between entirely unrelated figures and symbols forms the core of Hislop’s methodology. By treating mythology and folklore as historical fact, he constructs a speculative framework that lacks serious scholarly rigor.

    The Genetic Fallacy in Hislop’s Argument

    One of the most pervasive logical errors in The Two Babylons is the genetic fallacy, wherein Hislop assumes that the origins of an idea or practice determine its present-day meaning or significance. Hislop’s central argument is that because certain Catholic customs have superficial similarities to ancient pagan practices, these customs must be corrupt and pagan in nature. However, this is a flawed way of thinking. Cultural and religious practices evolve over time, often taking on entirely new meanings that are distinct from their origins. Even if some Catholic traditions did have roots in earlier cultural customs, this does not automatically invalidate them as Christian practices. To use an analogy, the use of the cross as a Christian symbol could be linked to earlier forms of crucifixion in the Roman Empire, but that does not mean the cross, as it is understood today, represents Roman execution methods.

    Hislop’s argument ignores the possibility that some cultural forms or symbols could have been adopted and reinterpreted by Christianity in a way that is wholly consistent with Christian theology. For example, while Christmas may be celebrated on December 25th, which coincides with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, this does not mean that Christmas is inherently pagan. The Church may have chosen this date to provide a Christian alternative to a popular pagan festival, helping converts transition into the Christian faith. Hislop’s failure to account for such Christianization processes limits the credibility of his arguments.

    Hislop’s Legacy in Jehovah’s Witness Theology

    Hislop’s work, despite its lack of scholarly merit, has had a lasting impact on certain religious movements, most notably Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Watchtower Society has, for much of its history, adopted Hislop’s method of arguing that various religious traditions are “rooted” in paganism and are therefore false. Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite alleged “pagan origins” as a reason to reject various Christian customs, such as the celebration of Christmas or the use of the cross as a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice. By echoing Hislop’s claims, the Watchtower continues to perpetuate the genetic fallacy, implying that any practice with possible pagan origins is inherently invalid or tainted.

    Whenever Jehovah’s Witnesses critique a religious tradition, whether it be the Catholic use of the cross or the celebration of birthdays, they often point back to these supposed pagan origins. This strategy of linking practices to ancient paganism is not only problematic because of its reliance on flawed historical analysis, but it also disregards the evolution and transformation of these practices within a Christian context. By refusing to acknowledge that symbols and customs can acquire new, legitimate meanings, the Watchtower Society’s approach effectively paints all non-Jehovah’s Witness religious practices with the same broad brush, as Hislop did with the Catholic Church.

    Misunderstanding Analogy vs. Genealogy

    One of the key flaws in Hislop's and Jehovah’s Witnesses' methodology is their failure to distinguish between analogy and genealogy. Just because two practices or symbols appear similar (analogy) does not mean one directly stems from the other (genealogy). For example, the use of candles in Catholic worship is often critiqued by Jehovah’s Witnesses because of their supposed connection to pagan rituals. However, candles have been used in countless cultures for various purposes, including purely practical ones such as providing light. The fact that pagans also used candles in their religious rituals does not mean that Catholic candle usage is derived from paganism. Hislop’s and the Watchtower Society’s tendency to make such connections overlooks the complexity of cultural transmission and religious symbolism.

    Conclusion: The Enduring Influence of Flawed Scholarship

    Hislop’s The Two Babylons remains influential among groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses, despite its many methodological flaws and erroneous conclusions. Hislop’s reliance on superficial similarities, genetic fallacies, and dubious historical sources provides a weak foundation for his sweeping claims about the Catholic Church and Christian practices. Unfortunately, his legacy persists in the form of the Watchtower Society’s continued reliance on the same flawed reasoning to critique religious customs they view as “pagan”. By perpetuating Hislop’s methodology, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups undermine their own credibility and fail to engage meaningfully with the historical and theological richness of Christian tradition. Instead, they rely on a form of historical revisionism that strips religious symbols and practices of their context, reducing them to mere echoes of a distant pagan past. This approach, while rhetorically powerful for those already predisposed to reject traditional Christianity, ultimately fails to stand up to serious scrutiny.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Regarding the links between Christendom and paganism - examples from the Catholic church:

    https://templarpriests.weebly.com/initiations.html


    https://merrywitch.weebly.com/black-preceptory-of-haiti.html



  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @FreeTheMasons

    I have answered you in the other topic.

    Btw. Haitian local customs have nothing to do with official Catholic doctrines and worship practices.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Thank you, I just responded there.🙂

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    According to the Protestants, the Catholic Church has gone astray, and moreover, it leads others astray, with Satan himself guiding it. Well, according to our faith, the Catholic Church has never changed concerning the teachings of Christ, and it can be clearly proven (with countless documents) that the current Catholic doctrine is completely identical to that of the Church before the Constantinian shift. Even the Protestants acknowledge this. It can also be proven that no congregation similar to 15th-century Protestantism existed earlier. They often refer to various heretical sects as the carriers of the "true gospel," but they merely select teachings similar to their own from these sects, while no Protestant church adheres to the full teachings of any of these sects (some of which are quite grotesque). Thus, essentially, a Protestant claims that the true gospel of Christ was corrupted shortly after the apostles (within a few years or decades), Satan—whom the Lord had just recently defeated—took over the main role and seduced all Christian believers.

    A man finally came along one and a half millennia (!) later, by the name of Martin Luther, a hot-tempered, rebellious, psychologically proven disturbed and uncertain monk, who, based on “a divine revelation” (which, according to his own admission, he received while on the toilet), finally restored the teachings of Christ and thus reopened the gates of heaven. For one and a half millennia, for 1500 years, no one could be saved because they did not know Protestant teachings, they were “idolaters” and “pagans.” For 1500 years, Christ helplessly watched His church serve Satan, even though He promised that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18), and He said, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Mt 28:20), “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.” (Jn 14:16), “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." (Jn 10:27-29). So just consider how likely all of this is.

    Not only Catholics, but also Protestants and so-called "independent" historians are clear on the fact that Peter certainly went to Rome, established a Christian community (= founded a church), and also died a martyr's death there. This is not only confirmed by early Christian literary and historical records — since without exception all early Christian writers associate Peter with Rome — but also completely supported by archaeological research. In 1968, the tunnels beneath the main altar of St. Peter's Basilica were excavated, and indeed, there they found a tomb from the first century, sealed by a rock bearing the inscription "Peter is here." Even the bones inside have been examined, and it turned out that they belong to a man in his sixties, who died by crucifixion in the first century. Moreover, in cities Peter passed through on his way to Rome, many things preserve the memory of his presence. Despite all this, some Protestant fundamentalists do not believe (or do not want to believe) that Peter went to Rome, simply because, according to them, the Bible is silent on the matter. For them, only the text of the Bible can provide a sure point of reference, and only as they interpret it. In their view, if the Bible does not mention it, then it could not have happened; and it makes no difference that the Bible does not deny that Peter went to Rome.

    Indeed, the Scriptures do not explicitly mention that "Peter went to Rome, founded a church, and thus became the first bishop of Rome, or the pope." The travels of no apostle are recounted in detail, and even of the most discussed, the journeys of Saint Paul, we do not have a complete picture, and we only learn of his death from tradition. The claim that "Paul wrote six letters from Rome between AD 60 and 65" is also not found in the Bible, though it is considered accepted by this "Bible Christian." This, for example, comes from Protestant tradition, which furthermore—according to at least 95% of biblical scholars—is not even true. Paul most likely wrote only one letter from Rome, the Second Letter to Timothy, while the others—thought by some to originate from his Roman imprisonment—were written during his imprisonment in Ephesus between 53 and 58 (Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians), or before his arrest in Rome, on his third missionary journey in 63-64 (1 Timothy, Titus). In 1 Timothy, Peter is not mentioned because by then he had already died. Nor does he mention him in the Letter to the Romans because at the time of writing, Peter was not in Rome (more on this later). As an apostle, Saint Peter was continuously traveling—just like Paul—not only to evangelize or to care for the churches he had founded, but also because he was in danger. From the beginning, the leader of the new "sect" was persecuted, not only by the Jews but also by Roman authorities. Rome became the number one enemy of Christians, and this latter fact (confirmed by numerous Roman records) implies that the Bible speaks of Peter’s stay in Rome.

    In the First Letter of Peter, the apostle writes, “She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark." (1 Peter 5:13). At this time, two places were named Babylon: the ancient, famous Mesopotamian city, frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, and a small Roman garrison in Egypt (Babylon Fossatum). However, by then, the ancient Babylon no longer existed, except as ruins, and was as insignificant a settlement as the Egyptian Babylon. What would Peter, the foremost apostle, have been doing in either of these small villages? Nothing, because these are not the places being referred to. The Book of Revelation frequently speaks of Babylon but consistently as a “great and mighty city,” which can be clearly identified with Rome (cf. 14:8; chs. 16-18) (and in one case, with Jerusalem). Independent ancient sources also confirm that “Babylon” was a code name among Christians, referring to Rome. Therefore, Peter wrote his first letter from “Babylon”, that is, from Rome. This is also confirmed by the Acts of the Apostles. It says that after Peter miraculously escaped from prison, he “went to another place” (Greek: "eis héteron topon") (Acts 12:17). Here, Peter did not wish to hide his destination from his brothers, but he did from the Roman authorities. Therefore, he used this Greek phrase, which refers to the Book of Ezekiel, specifically Ezekiel 12:13, where this exact phrase is used. From this, we know that the "other place" is Babylon, or Rome. This event occurred around AD 42, meaning Peter founded the Christian community there at that time, but he did not remain permanently, as by AD 48, he was in Jerusalem for the Apostolic Council.

    Saint Paul wrote the Letter to the Romans between AD 55-57, and he does not greet Peter because Peter was not in the city at that time; he only returned there a few years after the letter was written, around AD 60. Although Peter was not in Rome, Paul indirectly alludes to him, writing: "It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation... This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you." (Romans 15:20.22).

    If we combine the scriptural references with archaeological findings and early Christian records, we get a consistent picture where all elements support each other. However, if we reject Peter's founding of the church in Rome, we are merely following an unreasonable prejudice instead of reason. One can choose.

    If you are seriously interested in the topic, here is a recommended read: Carsten Peter Thiede [a Protestant scholar]: Simon Peter: From Galilee to Rome (1988).

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons
    Btw. Haitian local customs have nothing to do with official Catholic doctrines and worship practices.

    Yes, that is how all of the hypocritical religious institutions work.

    The Catholic Church, the modern Judaism groups, the Muslim organizations, the Hindu temples, the Buddhist centers, the Watchtower HQ, the LDS hierarchies...they're all that way.

    There is one public-facing published "official doctrine" and then there is what really happens.

    "Satan is the ruler of the world."

    He's the head of all those religious organizations. "The Supreme Architect of The Universe" that is superimposed over the earth at present.

    Satan slanders Jehovah by means of weaving lies about Him into various religious practices. The Bible figuratively depicts this "empire" as "Babylon the Great."

    Masons build empires. Anything not built on the rock-mass is being shaken and swept away. It will not continue to stand.

    What Alexander Hislop wrote or what any church publishes about their own official doctrine makes no difference to the one who has been assigned to carry out Jehovah's judgments. That court case already took place in heaven, and Jesus has been assigned to see that the things decided upon in heaven take place here on the earth.

    Jehovah always sends a warning first by means of His servants the prophets.

    The servants of Pharaoh who put faith in the words of Jehovah's messenger got out of the way of the next plague.

    The servants of Pharaoh who refused to listen suffered loss when that time of "woe" arrived.

    "Get out of her, my people!"

    All of Jehovah's judgments will be carried out. If you are part of the Watchtower affiliated masonic group, you would be wise to withdraw from that organization ASAP.

    It is the judgment of Jehovah. Everyone will know the things taking place in the darkness as the light gets brighter.


  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Your response seems to conflate various ideas without addressing the specific point I made. I referred to Haitian customs, not a broad critique of all religious institutions. The practices of local cultures and traditions, such as those in Haiti, are not representative of Catholic doctrine or worship.

    Regarding the Catholic Church, its doctrines are publicly available and based on centuries of theological development, and they are distinct from local customs, which may reflect cultural adaptations but do not alter official Church teachings. It's crucial to differentiate between practices that emerge from local contexts and the official teachings that guide the faith.

    Furthermore, 2 Peter 2:1-3 and 3:9-10 do not refute Catholic approach. These verses speak about false prophets and the coming judgment, which applies to all who mislead others or turn from righteousness. The Catholic Church, like many other Christian denominations, teaches the importance of repentance and following Christ's teachings.

    Simply associating organizations with Satan without any specific evidence or theological grounding is not a valid argument. The Catholic Church’s foundational beliefs are based on Christ’s teachings, and misrepresenting the faith based on unrelated local customs doesn’t invalidate its core message.

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