The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • vienne
    vienne

    if you expect me to read all of that, you're delusional. Certainly you can defend your religion in a sentence or two. I do not care what "the church" - your religion of choice - teaches. I care what the Bible teaches. The Catholic Church would have been at home in its own temple in ancient Babylon. It's time you find what the Bible actually teaches instead of looking to a religion that rapes children, steals from the poor, teaches falsehood and consorts with criminals.

    Are you incapable of accepting the Bible at its word? Are you incapable of writing something succinct?

    Your verbal spew is not convincing.

  • no-zombie
    no-zombie

    I's sorry to say ... but I have never read such BS reasoning in all my life. Saying that, if a Pope signs off on some horror, he simple looses his personal standing, but the Church remains unblemished, is plain stupid. Every Witness (and ex-Witness) here fully holds OUR organization accountable for its sins ... because every person or religion that claims a connection with God must be accountable for their actions. Its a fundamental tenet of the Bible.

    As a result, its clear that you (aqwsed12345) believe that its possible to white wash the sins of your church away, as you no real understanding of justice at all.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Your critique seems driven by a deep misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches and what the Bible actually says. It’s important to address both the misconceptions about the Church and the logic behind your reasoning.

    First, the idea that the Catholic Church somehow aligns with "ancient Babylon" (?) is a misinterpretation often based on a selective reading of scripture and a misunderstanding of history. The Church has always professed faith in Christ, the same Christ who established His Church on Peter (Matthew 16:18). The Catholic Church is not a man-made institution but a continuation of the Church Christ founded.

    Second, regarding the horrific sins committed by individuals within the Church, it’s essential to differentiate between the failings of individuals and the teachings of the Church itself. The Church is made up of human beings who, like all people, are susceptible to sin. However, the sins of individuals do not invalidate the truth of the Church’s teachings. The Bible is replete with examples of God using flawed people to accomplish His will—King David, who committed adultery and murder, yet was still called a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), is a prime example.

    The Catholic Church does not "whitewash" the sins of its members. On the contrary, the Church teaches repentance, accountability, and justice, echoing the Bible’s call for the same (1 John 1:9). The Church’s doctrine remains unblemished by the personal sins of its members, just as God’s covenant with David wasn’t nullified by David’s sins. The Church’s teachings stand on the truth of Christ, not the personal holiness of its leaders.

    Finally, accountability is indeed a fundamental tenet of the Bible, but it applies to individuals rather than institutions. The Church holds its members to account, but it does not claim that its truth depends on the sinlessness of its leaders. The truth of the Gospel is independent of human weakness.

    To conclude, the Catholic Church upholds the Bible’s teachings, including the recognition of sin, the need for repentance, and the call for holiness. The sins of individuals do not erase the truth that the Church proclaims, just as the sins of David did not negate his anointing by God. The Church’s role is to lead people to Christ, not to be an idol in itself. Rejecting the Church because of the sins of some of its members is akin to rejecting Christ because Judas was one of the apostles.

  • liam
    liam
    no-zombie
    As a result, its clear that you (aqwsed12345) believe that its possible to white wash the sins of your church away, as you have no real understanding of justice at all.

    aqwsed12345 is a troll man. No one could be that stupid. He enjoys seeing all of you get frustrated as you try to reason with his crazy made up logic.

    Don't feed the troll. He's just wasting your time, unless you like to be entertained once in a while like me.

  • no-zombie
    no-zombie

    liam

    You're are probably right. I'm a bit of a sucker though, on the issue of accountability ... that's my button unfortunately.

    thanks

  • KerryKing
    KerryKing

    I read the title to this thread wrong, i thought it said 'The Queen of the great apostasy ' and my next thought was Well we all know who that is 😅

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The claim that Peter was in Rome is not based solely on Acts 12:17, but rather on a combination of scriptural, historical, and archaeological evidence. The early Church Fathers, such as Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, who were much closer to the time of the apostles, also attested to Peter’s presence and martyrdom in Rome. The Acts of the Apostles was written as a historical account, not fiction, and was written by Luke, a companion of Paul, not a proto-Orthodox church in the 2nd century.

    The innterpretation of Matthew 24:9-28 and related passages appears to be influenced by a modern eschatological perspective rather than a historical one. The "great tribulation" in 66-70 CE is not the definitive fulfillment of the eschatological prophecies; rather, these are understood by many Christians to have a dual fulfillment, addressing both the immediate context of the early Church and the ultimate end times. Jesus' "parousia" is not limited to that generation but refers to His final return, which Christians have awaited ever since.

    Catholic doctrine is indeed apostolic, as it traces its teachings back to the apostles through an unbroken line of succession. The concept of the Trinity, the veneration of Mary, and other doctrines are rooted in early Christian tradition, not in "paganism". The charge of "pagan worship" is a common, but unfounded, critique that has been refuted many times over by both Catholic and non-Catholic scholars. Read this:

    It’s important to differentiate between the sins of individuals within the Church and the Church’s teachings. The Catholic Church does not condone the actions of those who have committed atrocities, and it has sought to address these issues. The Church is made up of human beings who, like everyone else, are capable of sin. However, this does not invalidate the truth of the Church’s teachings. The Church itself has acknowledged its failings and has taken steps to seek forgiveness and reconciliation.

    You bring up various historical incidents, some of which are distorted or taken out of context, to argue against the Catholic Church’s legitimacy. While the Church has certainly faced dark periods in its history, it has also been a force for immense good in the world, from establishing hospitals and schools to advocating for the poor and oppressed. To paint the entire history of the Church with a broad brush of negativity is to ignore the vast contributions it has made to global civilization and the spread of Christianity.

    In conclusion, your arguments seem to be based on a selective reading of history and scripture, as well as a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church, despite the failings of some of its members, continues to uphold the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The criticisms you’ve raised have been addressed by the Church over centuries, and they do not diminish its role as the Church founded by Christ.

  • aqwsed12345
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The Catholic Church and the Accusation of "Pagan Origin" Practices

    One of the most common accusations leveled against the Catholic Church, particularly by Protestant fundamentalist circles, is that Catholicism employs "pagan" or "pagan-origin" practices, thereby violating the teachings of Scripture. To support these accusations, it is often claimed that many elements of Catholic liturgy, celebrations, and traditions can be traced back to pagan roots. However, a deeper understanding reveals that these accusations are unfounded and stem from a misunderstanding of the Catholic Church's biblically based, thoughtful, and theologically sound practices.

    What Does "Pagan" Mean?

    Clarifying the concept of "paganism" is the first step in examining the accusations against the Catholic Church for allegedly adopting pagan-origin practices. The word "pagan" originates from the Latin term paganus, meaning "rural" or "rustic," but the term itself is not found in the Bible. In Late Latin, it roughly carried the meaning of "country dweller." In biblical texts, the Hebrew goyim and Greek ethnoi—often translated as "pagans"—simply mean "nations" or "peoples," in contrast to the Jewish people, "the People."

    It is important to understand that the Bible does not reject all practices or beliefs that are of non-Jewish origin. The prohibitions concern idolatry and immorality, not all non-Jewish cultural elements. Thus, the Bible is not anti-culture but anti-ungodliness. This approach allows for certain "pagan-origin" practices to become neutral over time, even though they were once part of a pagan worldview.

    For example, the Jews retained the Babylonian names of the months because their use did not lead them to idolatry. Similarly, converts to Christianity among the Germanic peoples were allowed to keep their old Germanic and Roman day names since these names did not affect their Christian faith. Today, no one associates the names of the days with any pagan gods.

    This principle extends to many other areas, such as Babylonian-origin astronomy, Greek-based geometry, or Roman-origin wedding rings. All these are now part of our culture, but the pagan ideas that once accompanied them have long since fallen away. The same is true for Christmas decorations, which no longer carry any pagan connotations. Today, no one is bothered by the fact that these items may have once had pagan origins, because the magical significance that was once attached to them has long disappeared.

    In essence, the question is not whether something was originally pagan, but what significance it holds today. If a practice or item has lost its original pagan meaning and now carries a neutral or Christian significance in contemporary culture, it poses no problem for the Christian faith.

    The Concept of Inculturation in the Catholic Church

    Inculturation is a theological concept that describes the encounter and interaction between the Gospel and local cultures. According to Catholic theology, the truth of the Gospel is universal, but its expression and practice necessarily adapt to different cultures and historical contexts. The essence of inculturation is that the Church preserves the core of the faith while incorporating elements of local cultures that are not contrary to Christian teaching.

    There are numerous biblical examples of inculturation. One of the most well-known cases is found in Acts 17, where the Apostle Paul speaks to the Greek philosophers in Athens. Paul recognizes the religiosity of the Athenians and their altar to the "unknown god," and uses this pagan element to preach the one true God to them. Paul does not outright reject the local religious elements but sees in them an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel. This is the principle of inculturation: integrating positive elements of local cultures without compromising the essence of the Christian faith.

    The Practice of the Catholic Church

    Throughout history, the Catholic Church has integrated various elements into its liturgy and practice that have origins in pagan customs. However, these elements were not incorporated to promote paganism, but to place them in the service of Christ and the Gospel. For example:

    • Christmas and the Winter Solstice: The feast of Christmas on December 25 coincides with the pagan feast of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun." However, Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth, not a pagan god. The Church consciously chose this date to replace the former pagan feast with a Christian celebration, thereby leading people to Christ.
    • Easter and Spring Festivals: The English word "Easter" likely derives from the name of the Germanic spring goddess Eostre. However, for Christians, Easter is the celebration of Christ's Resurrection, the most important event in the Christian faith. The original pagan roots of the name and the spring festival do not alter the Christian content and significance of Easter.
    • Use of Candles and Incense: Candles and incense were also present in pagan rituals. However, in the Catholic Church, these symbols represent the light of Christ and the prayers of the faithful rising to God. The shape and use of these objects are not inherently pagan; what matters is the meaning Christians ascribe to them.

    Biblical Defense

    The practices of the Catholic Church are therefore not contrary to Scripture, but rather represent a deeper, more thoughtful application of it. The Church does not accept any elements that would be explicitly contrary to the Gospel or Christian teaching. Just as Paul used elements of Greek culture to preach Christ, so too does the Church incorporate certain cultural elements to make the Gospel understandable and acceptable to all people.

    In his First Letter to the Corinthians, Paul writes, “I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some” (1 Cor 9:22). This attitude defines the essence of Catholic inculturation. The Church’s goal is to lead all people to Christ, using cultural elements in a way that does not lead to idolatry or paganism.

    We know that Paul willingly boarded a ship dedicated to Castor and Pollux, or that a Christian person in the Bible bore the names Fortunatus or Mercurius. But there is even more elaborate: Paul takes his analogy from the Mithraic cult when talking about shedding the old man and putting on the new man. And again: he approvingly quotes a verse ("in Him we live and move and exist") that originally addressed Zeus. He even calls a Cretan poet, Epimenides, a prophet.

    Early Christians did not hesitate to call Jesus Savior, although Roman emperors and earlier pagan rulers used it as a decorative title. Similarly, the Kyrios, which was applied to Jesus in the first, most concise Christian creeds, was the emperor's title of honor. But Paul spoke of the victor's wreath, which was part of the pagan religious elements woven into the Olympic Games, or the winner's palm, which also symbolized eternity with pagan overtones.

    Thus thee accusations against the Catholic Church for using pagan practices are unfounded upon closer examination. Inculturation is not the compromise of faith, but its effective and biblical propagation. The Church works to bring the message of Christ to all cultures, using all means that are not contrary to the Gospel. This approach not only does not violate the teachings of Scripture but is realized precisely in the spirit and principles of it.

    Why Inculturation Is Not Syncretism

    Syncretism is the blending of two or more religions’ teachings, beliefs, or practices in such a way that they merge in their original meaning and content, creating a new, mixed religious form. The Catholic Church, however, does not do this when it integrates pagan-origin practices into its liturgy or celebrations. In inculturation, pagan elements are not mixed with the core teachings of the Christian faith but are transformed and imbued with Christian meaning without altering or diluting fundamental Christian doctrines.

    Why Inculturation Is Not Syncretism

    • Preservation of Christian Doctrine: In inculturation, the Catholic Church always preserves the core and purity of Christian faith. The Church does not accept elements that would contradict or compromise Christian teachings. For example, if a pagan practice was originally linked to idolatry, the Church only integrates it if it can be completely transformed and given a clear Christian meaning that does not contradict Scripture.
    • Imbuing with New Meaning: The process of imbuing pagan-origin practices with Christian meaning ensures that they do not serve the worship of other deities but are directed solely to the one true God. For instance, the Christmas tree, originally a pagan custom, in Christianity symbolizes the light of Christ and eternal life. This is not syncretism because the original pagan meaning completely disappears and is replaced by a Christian interpretation.
    • Biblical Example: As mentioned earlier, in Acts 17, the Apostle Paul provides an example of how local cultural elements can be used in the proclamation of the Gospel. Paul did not accept pagan religions but adjusted their elements to Christ and the Gospel. This is the essence of inculturation: aligning local customs with Christ without altering the core of the Christian faith.

    How Does This Relate to 2 Corinthians 6:14-18?

    In 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, the Apostle Paul warns Christians not to be "unequally yoked" with unbelievers and not to participate in practices associated with idolatry. Paul emphasizes that Christians should not compromise their faith or accept practices or customs that are explicitly contrary to Christian teaching.

    However, inculturation does not mean that Christians compromise their faith. On the contrary, the goal of inculturation is to deepen and express the Christian faith in various cultures while preserving its purity and integrity. Elements that are not in harmony with Christian teaching are not incorporated into Church practice. The Church never accepts idolatry and never merges it with the core teachings of the Christian faith.

    Therefore, the warning in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is not contrary to inculturation because, in the process of inculturation, the Church does not align itself with idolatry or other pagan religious elements but transforms and aligns them with Christ. In inculturation, the Church follows the example of the Apostle Paul, who used pagan cultures to serve the proclamation of the Gospel while preserving the purity and unity of the Christian faith.

    Hence the accusations against the Catholic Church for employing pagan practices and thus engaging in syncretism are unfounded. Inculturation is not syncretism because the Church does not merge different religions but transforms cultural elements to give them Christian meaning. Inculturation is based on biblical foundations and is not contrary to the warning in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, as the Church always preserves the purity of the Christian faith and rejects idolatry. Inculturation is thus an effective tool for spreading the faith, allowing the Gospel to reach and resonate with people in all cultures.

    The "Pagan Influence" Fallacy is based on the idea that a religion, belief, or practice is discredited because it is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism, and is therefore considered corrupted or completely false. This fallacy is often committed by fundamentalists against Catholics, but other Christians, such as Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, also commit it against Protestants and Catholics. Atheists and skeptics also apply this fallacy against Christianity and Judaism.

    In the 19th century, the "pagan influence" fallacy was particularly widespread, partly due to the emergence of new archaeological discoveries and translations of ancient texts. Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons was one of the most well-known works accusing the Catholic Church of paganism. Since then, several sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, have based their arguments on the claims made in this book.

    In the 20th century, modern archaeology and more mature scholarship have reduced the influence of the pagan influence fallacy, but many still commit this error. Those who base their arguments on the pagan influence fallacy often adopt and repeat accusations without properly documenting or verifying their origins.

    One type of pagan influence fallacy is when someone claims that similar practices or beliefs exist only because one religion borrowed them from another. For example, they cite "Trinitarian" similarities in Egyptian religion, although this is misleading because the Egyptians did not worship a tri-personal single deity like the Christian Trinity but a pantheon of multiple gods.

    The existence of similarities alone does not prove that one religion borrowed from another. Moreover, it is also essential to consider how a particular parallel developed and how it was treated by the followers of the religion—positively, neutrally, or negatively.

    Finally, even if there is a similarity between two religious practices, it does not mean that one is inherently wrong simply because it has a pagan parallel. Each case must be judged based on its content, not its supposed historical origin.

    What is Logoi Spermatikoi and How Does It Relate to the Assessment of Paganism?

    The term "logoi spermatikoi" or "logos spermatikos" originates from ancient Greek philosophy and is primarily recognized as an important concept in Christian theology. The term itself means "the seeds of the Word" or "the Word's seeds" and was most notably used by Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 AD) in Christian thought.

    In Greek philosophy, the word "logos" originally referred to divine reason or the principle that organizes the universe. The word "spermatikos" means "seed-bearing" or "fertilizing." Justin Martyr explained that "logos spermatikos" is the "seed" that the divine Logos (the Word) sowed within humanity. This seed enabled pagan philosophers and thinkers to recognize certain truths, even though they were not Christians. Justin believed that the search for and partial recognition of truth is not limited to Christians but is accessible to all humanity because the divine Logos influences all of humanity.

    The concept of "logoi spermatikoi" is particularly important in the context of evaluating paganism and pagan philosophy. According to Justin and other early Christian theologians, pagan philosophers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle participated in certain aspects of divine truth through "logos spermatikos," even though they did not fully recognize it, which was manifested in its entirety in Christianity.

    This idea allowed early Christian theologians to avoid completely rejecting pagan thought but instead to recognize in it those elements that are consistent with Christian teaching. Therefore, certain truths in pagan philosophy could be integrated into Christian doctrine without being accused of any form of syncretism.

    The concept of "logoi spermatikoi" plays a crucial role in how Christianity evaluates pagan cultures and philosophies. According to this principle, pagan thought is not entirely to be dismissed but rather may contain partial truths that are universally accessible to humanity through the influence of the divine Logos. Thus, for Christians, it is not problematic to integrate certain pagan elements into their faith, provided that these elements do not contradict Christian teaching but rather complement and enrich it.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    "The true Church must be continuous from the apostolic age. There is no room in Christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true Christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement"

    That is definitely not true.

    Jesus said in Matt 13 that there would be wheat Christians and when the sower (Jesus and the apostles) died off then weeds would overrun them. After that the differences would not be recognizable. Then in the time of the harvest, the last days the weeds would be discernable from the wheat.

    That is what happened. When Russell and the later ones moved toward the truth, the wheat became discernable from the false Christian weeds.

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