And Now Leolaia???? What am I now?????
I have no idea. But rest assured those impressions were left behind at the doorstep of the watchtower long ago.
Leolaia
Those scary apostates outside conventions with banners and megaphones...
by dolphman 75 Replies latest jw friends
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Leolaia
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Abaddon
amac:
Not neccesarily. She might come from a family that got out of the Borg, be receiving a comprehensive education, be familiar with a variety of belief systems, and be quite capable of saying why JW's and other high control groups differ from most main stream religions, and that they need to be made aware of this.
Poor argument...this sounds just like many JW kids. It would still equal indoctrination."... this sounds like just like many JW kids"?
I disagree.
I don't think I've met any Witnesses about who receieved a comprehensive education; even if they sit in a classroom they are primed with techniques that limit the impact any inconvenient little facts might have. Hello cognotive dissonance, goodbye 'comprehensive' education. Just 'cause they hear it doesn't mean they listen.
As for 'familiar with a variety of belief systems', being told how to 'disprove' other religions from a Jehovah's Witness view is NOT familiarity with a variety of belief systems!
I also disagree that they would be able to say why JW's and other high control groups differ from most main stream religions, as they'd dispute they were in a high control group.
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amac
To ASSUME that a 7 year old apostate picketing and flyering at a convention is receiving a "comprehensive" education, is familiar with a variety of belief systems, etc, but that a 7 year old JW passing out magazines is suffering from cognitive dissonance and from being indoctrinated is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!
Any 7 year old that spends valuable time denouncing the beliefs of others rather than working on their own has been INDOCTRINATED. How can you come to a critical conclusion at 7 years old?
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Abaddon
amac:
To ASSUME that a 7 year old apostate picketing and flyering at a convention is receiving a "comprehensive" education, is familiar with a variety of belief systems, etc, but that a 7 year old JW passing out magazines is suffering from cognitive dissonance and from being indoctrinated is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!
And that is what we call an assertion. It is pretty damn certain that a young person growing up as a Witness will be capable of showing cognotive dissonance. That's why it's a high control group, or at least one of the reasons why it is a high control group. Or do you dispute that JW's are a high control group?
I can remember being troubled by the creation account at EIGHT years-old, as by that point absorbing six books a week, often reference books about animals for adults as I'd outgrown the really kiddy stuff, and I knew that there was something wrong, but carried on believing for years. And what's that? Cognotive dissonance, or 'double-think' as Orwell termed it.
Contrarywise, a "7 year old apostate" (I would call them the child of an apostate, if I used the term apostate at all) might have parents who have just gone from one cultic situation into another, in which case you would be right, or their parents might have escaped cultic thinking and be doing something which is no more or less indoctrinatory than parents who take their children on any rally or protest.
Unless we make indoctrinate mean anything from having parents with opinions who engage in direct action uo to parents in a cult, your assertion is not valid.
A JW kid is almost certainly indocrinated. An x-JW kid MAY be indoctrinated. You're making the assumption that they WOULD be, which is clearly unsound, QED.
Any 7 year old that spends valuable time denouncing the beliefs of others rather than working on their own has been INDOCTRINATED. How can you come to a critical conclusion at 7 years old?
See my example above. It seems that you would consider any child taken on anti-gun, anti-capitalist, anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-gun, pro-gay, pro-abortion demonstartion or other direct action (marches, rallies etc.) is indoctrinated. Any child taken on such activites is denouncing the beliefs of others. I would also consider that provided parents are responsible in the way they educate their children, they ARE in fact "working on their own". The fact it's possible for children to grow up with different opinions from their parents and thus MUST be 'working on their own [beliefs]' is rather admirably demonstrated by this board and virtually ANYONE who disagrees with their parents on religion, morality or politics. -
amac
By "indoctrinate" I mean to teach doctrines to and/or to teach uncritically. Most 7 year olds are not capable of coming to a critical conclusion on something as serious as religion, gun control, abortion, any of that stuff. So yes, a parent dragging their kid to a rally, a protest, a JW convention, or to picket a JW convention is very likely to be indoctrinating their child. Is it possible that the parent may be presenting their child with critical veiwpoints on their own beliefs? Possibly, for any of those groups, including the JWs. But I would have to say that it is highly unlikely. So leave the 7 year old with a babysitter, go do your protest, and let them grow up and form their own conclusions.
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Abaddon
amac:
By "indoctrinate" I mean to teach doctrines to and/or to teach uncritically.
I don't know if you can say "teach doctrines to and/or to teach uncritically" with any validity. Teaching someone a doctrine could be as simple as telling your kids that Fatima and her family won't be at their birthday party until late as it's Ramadan, and explaining what Ramadan is. That's the kind of instruction I'm invisaging in my hypothetical 7 year-old. Uncritical teaching is what Witnesses do well.
Thus my disagreement with your view; with the 'apostate 7 years-old' indoctrination IS an assumption, with the JW indoctination is a near certainty.
Most 7 year olds are not capable of coming to a critical conclusion on something as serious as religion, gun control, abortion, any of that stuff. So yes, a parent dragging their kid to a rally, a protest, a JW convention, or to picket a JW convention is very likely to be indoctrinating their child.
In which case an AWFULL lot of parents are indoctrinating their children. Personally I think if the kids are there without being able to explain WHY they are there in terms appropriate for their age, then the parents are opening themselves up to accusations of either a/ not being able to get a sitter or b/ using their kids as props for their own agenda. Some kids are, some aren't..
Is it possible that the parent may be presenting their child with critical veiwpoints on their own beliefs? Possibly, for any of those groups, including the JWs. But I would have to say that it is highly unlikely. So leave the 7 year old with a babysitter, go do your protest, and let them grow up and form their own conclusions.
Despite it appearing not so to start off with, we do have similar viewpoints!