True, or FAlse?

by Andyman 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Friend:

    Perhaps you should change your name to Pessimistic Skeptic or the like.

    As you may or may not be aware the Bethel title loses weight the closer you get to Brooklyn. Just as there are sisters and brothers who have no problem telling off an elder or at least making their opinion known, so too these same outspoken brothers will do so to Bethelites serving in their halls. The mysticism has gone after having Bethelites in your Cong for over 40 years.

    To quote as closely as I can considering the time that has past, one sister while pointing her finger in my face was saying "what kind of example does that set when a bethelite thumbs his nose at the organization by associating publicly like that with a known disfellowshipped person."

    You are also correct in that you were not there Friend, so while you may want to allege I am embellishing to satisfy your comfort level, that doesn't take away from the truth of the story. Do I need to explain to you the assuming problem?

    Or do you disagree with my position in that the ambiguous language used by the Society to cover their collective ass feeds and essentially encourages extremism on the part of Publishers and elders?

    Kismet

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Amen to the comment about Bethelites. Further away they are practically gods. The closer one gets, the more people feel free to criticise, likely as you said due to familiarity.

    I would be inclined to believe that Kismet's story might have some slight embellishments relating to his perception and vantage point. On the other hand, the whole shunning issue has produced some rather shocking reactions and displays on the part of many Witnesses.

    I think it results from us being conditioned to do what is not humanly natural. As for the topic at hand who would have thought one's parents could shun their flesh and blood for simply asking questions and mentioning concerns with references and evidence to back up such concerns?

    Path

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    PathofThorns:

    I have to agree that anyone telling a personal account is biased by his or her own pespective of the events as they occurred. (This is a fact proven several times over at crime scenes wherein several different versions are reported based on the testimony and perspective of the witness.)

    The above also proves that Friend was attempting more to discredit the account by waving this straw man of embellishment.

    However regular commentors at the bookstudy remained quiet throughout, not even raising their hands. There was obvious tension in the room thus the reason why I ended the study early so as to address the concerns.

    However the story was told more to illustrate the point that the ambiguous language used by the Society fosters extreme actions on the part of the publishers and elders. Friend neglected to address that point.

    Thank you however, for your comments.

    Kismet

  • Friend
    Friend

    Kismet

    “The Bethel title” aside (which is not what I was eluding too, BTW), the scenario is still difficult considering that publishers are perfectly aware that elders are the only ones disfellowshipped persons can turn to for congregational help. That means that an elder being seen with someone disfellowshipped should only raise flags if it is a very inappropriate setting. Standing beside a disfellowshipped person on the side of a public thoroughfare is hardly an inappropriate setting.

    You are also correct in that you were not there Friend, so while you may want to allege I am embellishing to satisfy your comfort level, that doesn't take away from the truth of the story. Do I need to explain to you the assuming problem?

    Please tell me where I assumed anything before offering such a lecture. As for anyone’s so-called “comfort level”, whose experience should they trust more, their own or a total stranger’s?

    I certainly do not deny that publishers could act as you described, but it would be an exception rather than a rule, at least based upon my experience. Your anecdote intimates that such reactions are the norm rather than the exception. Conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence should be based upon the prevalent rather than the peculiar—if they are drawn at all. Using a personal experience to illustrate a point is valid in that it introduces a measure of clarity to the point; however such anecdotes don’t make the point as in evidencing it to the point of proof, which was partly my point. A person could render all sorts of claimed experiences, but persons having different experiences will not be convinced based upon that neither should they be, which was also my point. Do I need to further explain this fallacy of argumentation to you?

    I am not categorically saying you are relaying an inaccurate depiction. I am saying that your depiction defies my experience and I have offered reasons why other’s experiences are similar to my own.

    Or do you disagree with my position in that the ambiguous language used by the Society to cover their collective ass feeds and essentially encourages extremism on the part of Publishers and elders?

    Whether I agree or disagree with your position does not evidence your position one way or another as to correctness. People who are given to extremes will most likely act that way regardless of what the Society does or why, at least that is my experience; does yours differ?

    As for language used, sometimes ambiguousness is proper for the subject and sometimes it is not, which means that conclusions based strictly on ambiguity or not are ill founded. As for my feelings about the subject of this thread, namely the quote from the Society’s PR site, please read my comment above. If you have questions after that feel free to ask.

    The above also proves that Friend was attempting more to discredit the account by waving this straw man of embellishment.

    And with those words you assert that I have somehow misrepresented your story or position. Please show everyone where I did such a thing. For one, I would really like to see you try that, but please be careful not to screw up the details.

    Friend

    Edited by - Friend on 21 July 2000 14:42:7

  • Seven
    Seven

    To All, Excellent discussion. I would like to hear
    comments from any who are presently being shunned for whatever reason.

    waiting, You might find this pamphlet interesting reading on a rainy day. It's from the German propaganda archive designed to innoculate the German people into disbelieving claims of German atrocities. If you're not into history like I am just ignore. [url] http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/lugen0.htm[/url]

    7

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Seven of Nine:

    I am not Df'ed however I can recount what my father has been through. He was disfellowshipped in 1976 for smoking. My folks split up shortly thereafter. Though visitation was kept up initially after he moved a distance away, myself and my siblings were told by my mother (a JW) that our contact with our father should only be for family emergencies.

    After my dad was dfed and split from my mom, my sister (a very good looking slim brunette - she was hot but I'll deny ever saying that!!) was excluded from events and was told outright by some that some parents expressed concern that children of a disfellowshipped person and of divorced (GASP - remember this was the 70's and divorce just wasn't all that common yet) parents was likely bad association. One elder's son actually told her that he really liked her but he wants to marry into a stable JW family. JERK

    After my mother left the Org and subsequently deserted her three teenage children (12, 15, 18) my brother and I moved in with my dad and step mother. We tried living with my sister for 2 years first..It just didn't work... go figure.

    My father drove us to all the meetings. He bought suits etc as needed as I grew from 5'11" to 6' 3" in one year. He allowed my brother and I to have JW friends over to his home and he would make himself scarce so as to not make our guests uncomfortable. My brother thought about quitting the Org during a period of depression. My father worked this through with him, knwoing how much the Org meant to us at the time and really how much my brother needed the structure.

    We moved again and one of the considerations my father looked at was proximity to a Kingdom hall. In this new Hall unfortunately many of the extreme attitudes were again manifest. (People picking us up for service etc, would stop on the street in front of our home and honk the horn. If brothers called and my dad picked up the phone, he had hang ups, and very curt rude attitudes given to him. ("Oh. I was calling for Kismet" appropriate snarkiness intoned) Once again my Father not only tolerated this rudeness but continued to encourage our JW activities.

    Much to my father's chagrine, I moved out as soon as I graduated. I also then returned to the more extreme position of shunning my father. One phone call per year. No letters. Nothing. My brother moved out after and took up the same extreme position. My father's comment. If you need to do this in order to be happy and content in your life so be it. I don't like it, I hate it but all i want is your success and happiness.

    We lessened our approach over the years that followed. He was told he was not welcome at my sister's (his only daughter) wedding, though was asked for money to help pay for it. (He drew the line there - sent a $$ gift but that was it)

    While I served at Bethel he would get my step mother to call in so that the Receptionist would not feel awkward if s/he found out it was my Disfellowshipped father calling. he would get on the phone later.

    While visiting the city where I was serving at Bethel, Bethel rules dictated that df'ed people are personna non grata on Bethel property. Even family members of Bethelites. So my Step mother came in to see where I lived and took pictures so my father could at least have an idea of where his son lived.

    He was hospitalized in the late 80's with an aneurism (lower aorta). While at the hospital I saw two brothers (hospital visitation committee) told them my father was in Room ** and advised that though he is disfellowshipped is not not -anti-Witness and would likely appreciate a pastoral visit from them more so than a priest. Despite being there for three weeks he did not get one visit by these elders.

    To my perspective it was my father's unconditional love and supprt for his children that started me questioning the whole disfellowhipping policy and the morality thereof. I spoke with the brothers responsible for writing department both at the branch and in Brooklyn regarding this issue. I spoke with Service departments and Governing Body members. ALl agreed that the approach we have taken with my father was the correct one. Shunning except in the case of emergencies. The fact that 20 years had past and it was for smoking. He had quit smoking long ago. Lives a quiet peaceful lawfully married existence. This didn't matter. He was to be shunned.

    In speaking with my father now, he told me of nights where he cried himself to sleep over not having a relationship with his sons. He went into major depression over my sister's wedding fiasco. Yet he never uttered a hateful word to us about the Org or our conduct towards him. When I was appointed an elder I decided (arrogantly) to shepherd visit my own father. I asked forthright why he has never come back into the Truth. He refused to answer anything more than to say I don't want to be known as one speaking against the Organization.

    I have always had a respect for my father. But since I have disregarded the whole shunning policy I have come to know the real man. He claims he missed out on part of his son's life. He did, but I think I am the one who missed out on those years with an incredible man.

    I did not experience the heart wrenching pain my father did. I hope that my conduct now can in some way make up for the suffering I caused.

    Tishie's support board ( http://www.support4xjws.org) contains many such stories of the needless pain caused by the shunning policy especially within families.

    Hope this is of some assistance and apologize yet again for the wordiness of the post

    Kismet - who hopes one day to be as good a man as his father

  • Dubby
    Dubby

    Kismet,

    Thanks for sharing with us your experiences. I don't doubt your story about the df'd sister and I believe that you didn't embellish it. I have too often seen very similar behavior. In fact, I partook in despicable shunning behavior on several occasions.

  • Dubby
    Dubby

    Friend,

    How in the hell can you call yourself "friend"? Who are you a friend to? You go out of your way to shoot down any adverse behavior about JW's as reported by other JW's and former JW's. I have myself as a JW participated in horribly unfeeling behavior as well as thousands of other JWs. Do you live in a bubble? Or are you in the perfect congregation? I find YOUR story an embellishment of JW behavior. At least it's a story that's few and far between.

    Do you think we are phonies who like to pose as xJW's just to condemn the WTS? Do you think we make up stories to get faithful JW's to leave the WTS? No, "Friend", I believe most here tell it like it is. THAT is MY experience.

  • Andyman
    Andyman

    The whole issue of shunning is a very touchy subject. I have never been DF'd or DA'd, unless it was done with out my knowledge, yet many in my old congregation shun me and my family. Not all mind you, but most of them.

    I simply stopped going to meetings and told the elders why. I told them the congregation was having problems and that nobody wanted admit it. I said that if they wanted to pretend everything was fine and cover up for those who were causing the problems it was up to them, but I wanted nothing to do with it.

    Many of the congregation knew wha the problems were, and many had come forward in the past, to no avail. But the thing is I ceased to be involved and am being shunned for that choice.

    As for friend, I think I may have to take back all the things I said about you being a nice guy! Your really seem to be in a rotten mood lately. You just can't accept that some JW's aren't very nice people. I know several sisters in my old congregation who didn't care one thing aobut who they mouthed off to. Now how would you feel if you were telling an experience and somebody accused YOU of embellishing what you were saying? Seems like many JW's have a problem with believing stories that make the society or JW's in general look bad.

    If you want "embellishing" just listen to some of those "experiences" at the hall sometime, now those are "embellishment"!

    Chill out friend!

    Take care.

    Andyman:

  • Seven
    Seven

    Dear Kismet, I think you are already a good a man as your father. What a story! Thank you ever so much for sharing this part of your life with us. Thanks for the link too. I am saving your post so I'll have it to read over and over. You're a very good writer.Seven

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