True, or FAlse?

by Andyman 69 Replies latest jw friends

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  waiting

  Busy place!

  1. Thank you, 7, for the clicker to Nazi propaganda site. That is where I have been for a while. Fascinating thoughts on how to actually accomplish the idea of mind control. Fascinating.

  2. Andyman, I thought today more about your question. I was looking at it from my own experiences and my children's only. They were, and aren't, shunned. Neither are we. Of course, we were never a popular family, so we might be shunned, and just don't realize it.....

  However, two years ago, a brother in our cong. stopped coming to the KH after approaching the elders on 4 different occasions, about a serious, illegal problem pertaining to a ministerial servant's work actions. The elders did nothing except make the ms teacher over the Second School and allowed to give Sunday talks. This ms had a lawsuit against him, and the brother had already won a lawsuit against the other party involved.

  The brother who went to the elders was shunned, he told us of others who treated him so. We were having dinner with him and his wife. I was so green, it never occurred to me to be rude to him.

  Btw, the elders never approached the legally wronged brother in any way; the sued brother is doing well in the KH. He lost his job, however, because of his actions. Guess the world sees libal, defamation of character, slander, etc. different than brothers.

  3. Kismet, in Friend's defense (which he'll probably get mad about), I would be out of line if I didn't admit that I embellish my words sometimes. However, my nephew served in Bethel, and he truly was hurt by the cong. he was assigned to. They viewed him as another "Bethelboy." They ignored & belittled him, every chance they got, for a year.

  Thank you for your insight. I have, as of yet, to read on the web about a man's heart. Emotions run amuck - but not much heart & soul. Your dad has a fine son, must be a reflection of himself. As they say in the South, "you done 'im proud, boy."

  waiting
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  Friend

  Kismet

  Experiences such as you described with your father are too common. When will everyone learn the lesson of the neighbor? Thanks for the sharing those very personal thoughts.

  Dubby

  My pseudonym should not be misunderstood for naiveté or milquetoast personality. I am not afraid to speak my mind and I don’t think anyone else should be either. If you take umbrage at what I say then please explain what or how I have misrepresented or somehow needlessly attacked character. If I have somehow misbehaved then I will promptly apologize. You apparently feel that I have somehow acted out of line or without feeling. If so, then please explain yourself. My responses to Kismet were genuine.

  You go out of your way to shoot down any adverse behavior about JW's as reported by other JW's and former JW's.

  And exactly who is "shooting down" among those sharing adverse experiences? Who is speaking in behalf of the other persons involved? Who is telling their side of the story? Who?

  Perhaps you misunderstand a basic point, that of fair play. If someone is willing to share a derogatory or defamatory story away from the other players involved then should everyone else just sit idly by thinking, "Hey, since he made the accusation it must be true"? Is that what you think we should do? Is it? You sound like the juror who during pretrial selection stated, "Well, the defendant must be guilty or else they would not have arrested him."

  Andyman

  You just can't accept that some JW's aren't very nice people.

  Of that I have no doubt. Please show where I have ever indicated otherwise.

  I know several sisters in my old congregation who didn't care one thing about who they mouthed off to. Now how would you feel if you were telling an experience and somebody accused YOU of embellishing what you were saying?

  Yes, I too have experienced similar things. So what? Should I presume that those few experiences indicate the character of the whole. Have you ever heard of the converse accident?

  How would I feel? Why should I necessarily feel anything regarding the question you ask? Should I expect that everyone else will agree with me? Should I expect that other’s experiences are the same or similar to my own? Should I take umbrage because someone is willing to stand and speak their mind? I don’t think so. I don’t think such should bother anyone. Why should it? What should bother people more so is lack of clear thinking and corresponding representations.

  Friend
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  Zep

  Since this topic is on Shunning and all.You guys might like read the stuff on this site

  http://www.xjw.com/

  Some interesting stories and an interesting analysis on the Dub policy of Shunning and Disfellowshipping.Just scroll down the page a little and Take a peek!
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  RedhorseWoman

  Kismet, it seems to me that your father is the true Christian. From his words and actions, he has definitely shown himself to be better association than many of those who look down on him. I'm so glad that you're finally able to have a relationship with him.

  Friend, you speak of "few experiences" of the type that Kismet relates. I wish that were true. Unfortunately, over the years I found that the "few experiences" translated into the majority of experiences with JW's. The experiences that were few were those where JW's acted in a kind, loving, Christian manner.
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  Friend

  RedhorseWoman

  Friend, you speak of "few experiences" of the type that Kismet relates. I wish that were true. Unfortunately, over the years I found that the "few experiences" translated into the majority of experiences with JW's. The experiences that were few were those where JW's acted in a kind, loving, Christian manner.

  Experience amounts with every single moment of our lives—in this case with every single moment of association with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have no doubt that bad encounters are experienced, but I also have no doubt that if those experiences were the norm then persons would not have expended so many years of their life embroiled with them; persons would have left much sooner.

  On the other hand, RedhorseWoman, our personal experience is just that, personal. It may or may not be parallel with that of the majority. Also, we cannot necessarily depend upon the experiences of our friends because humans tend to make friends based upon compatibility, which oftentimes means agreement on basic issues. Therefore our friends might substantiate our experiences whereas friends of other persons may defy our experiences. This is why anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable.

  I certainly do not discount your experiences (or those of anyone else); they are no more or less evidentiary than my own experiences, which is the point.

  My own experience is that in every congregation there are plenty of kind and loving people. In fact I contend that, on the whole, the brotherhood of Jehovah’s Witnesses is made up of kind people, people that want to do right and live according to Bible standards. Unfortunately it is the bad experiences that tend to stick in our minds. It is so easy to remember the bad and so easy to forget the good. Whatever the subject, most often we take the good for granted. It’s like bad sound at a large convention. One hour of bad sound and to hear people talk afterward sound amplification was terrible for the entire day. The same generally is true of other bad experiences.

  Friend

  Edited by - Friend on 21 July 2000 23:18:27
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  Simon

  Kismet
  I understand what you have gone through with your father. My father was DF'd whe I was little and I was told by the elders that I should not even speak to him.
  He emigrated to Canada from the UK and I was out of touch with him for many years even when he was having heart bypass surgery I didn't speak to him which I am bitterly ashamed of now.
  Last year, he got in touch and came over to visit - he met my wife and two grandsons for the first time. I bought him a webcam so we've been able to keep in touch and we're going over to visit later in the year.
  While he was over, he visited the hall and sat with my mum at the meeting. They had done missionary work together for many years when they were young and started the fund to build the KH that the local congregation now has and that was the time they chose to give a local needs talk about apostacy and marking which was directed at me (a local elder has been going round telling everyone I was an apostate after I asked them some questions at an 'alleged' shepherding call)
  So, does the society break up families? Yes.
  Do we shun former members? Of course we do, we shun current ones as well.
  Will the local congregation / WTS pay for the pain they've caused people like me? Watch this space...
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  Pathofthorns

  A very powerful story Kismet.

  Sometimes I would just like to shake the hand of such great men as your father. It appears you are already walking in his shoes.

  Path

  (PS We are not likely too far away from each other, are we? :)
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  Kismet

  PathofThorns:

  It is possible we are close to each other but Canada is afterall the 2nd largest country in the world. So if you are in Vancouver we are a long way from each other.

  I am here in the "big smoke" (Toronto)

  Simon:

  Depending on where your father lives, when you come over I would enjoy getting together with you, share a pint or three and compare stories.

  SevenOfNine:

  Thanks. For both your kind words and the subsequent smile it put on my face.

  Kismet
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  Pathofthorns

  We are not far apart Kismet :)

  Path
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  Andyman

  Friend you made the comment:
  "I have no doubt that bad encounters are experienced, but I also have no doubt that if those experiences were the norm then persons would not have expended so many years of their life embroiled with them; persons would have left much sooner."

  This whole post is about what happens when they do leave. If a person is born into the society then most likely they have no outside friends to speak of. If they joined later in life then they are incouraged not to have "worldly" association. They are encouraged to associated only with the "friends".

  I know for me it was only a matter of a few years before the "friends" were all my wife and I associated with. They were supposed to be our true family, and friends.

  Now the problem here is tha once you walk away and leave most of those so called friends no longer will talk with you. A high price to pay, yes? When your whole life revolves around the society and the "friends" it is much harder to leave when you see things than it would be in say another religion.

  I put saw many problems in the congregation before I finally walked away. It followed the advice of the society and went to the elders to no avail. The guilty weren't even talked to, and my wife and I became the criminals because we dared to speak up. We suffered through years of being marked simply because we followed the rules and came forward with wrong doings.

  Even after almost two years away from the scoiety, I still had no outside friends. All those who were my "friends" when I was attending the meetings never call or come around any longer. It has been about 5 years now since I walked away. It has been 3 years since anyone has come by to see how we are doing. My wife still has problems trusting people, and making friends.

  So your leaving isn't all that easy. Sure if you don't mind being shunned and treated like a leper it is easy. But most JW's know how they will be treated when they leave. That makes it a little harder in my book.

  I have been there, and I know what it is like, have you? It is a lot easier said than done!

  Take care.

  Andyman: