Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon? (page 2)

Vanderhoven7

@Vidqun

The GT was a non-repeatable event affecting The Jews and Jerusalem.

Luke 21:34 in context.

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Note a change in subject in what follows here as seen also in (Matt. 24:36–44; Mark 13:32–37 )

34¶And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth

Jesus basically was asked 2 questions one about when the temple would come down and then other, about the signs preceding his second coming (parousia) in judgment. Jesus separated these 2 judgments, the first having signs, it's timing to allow believers to flee at the exact moment, it would be localized and that they should pray that their flight would not be hampered by weather conditions etc.

The second coming (parousia) however would not be something one could free from, it would come as a complete surprise, it would be worldwide and no signs would precede it's happening.

Matthew and Mark make this division (Jerusalem vs World judgment) more clearly

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

(Mark 13:32–37; Luke 17:26, 27, 34, 35; 21:34–36 )

36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Be Ready for His Coming

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Rattigan350

Why are you looking to youtube ( a bearded man with long hair) for information on prophesies in Revelation.

Do we really know that there will be a Great Tribulation? Jesus mentioned it but just because Jesus said it doesn't mean that it will be that way, afterall he said this generation... He also spoke of a Faithful and Discreet slave.

Revelation 7 speaks of a great crowd of people coming out of a great tribulation but the word 'tribulation' is so vague as to what it means we don't know what it is.

Vanderhoven7

@Rattigan

Was Jesus clean shaven with short hair? What do beards and hair length have to do with truth? Look at message content, not at the superficial.

Compare Steve Gregg's analysis of Revelation with the farcical Revelation Climax At Hand book.

Vidqun

I believe Matthew's chronological sequence to be accurate. First "the great tribulation," then the Second Coming:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Matt. 24:21-22 ESV)

Nothing to do with the siege of Jerusalem:

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. (Matt. 24:29-32 ESV)

Note the parable of the fig tree. The great tribulation will be accompanied by many signs:

30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (Joel 2:30-31 ESV)

This is confirmed by Revelation:

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. (Rev. 6:12-14 ESV)

road to nowhere

Your heading is too long. "Is the WT totally off base?"

Duran

WW3/pangs of distress (This is the pretext used to give 8th king his authority)

8th king 42-month rule (This is the time of GT upon those refusing him = Spiritual Jerusalem/temple being trampled)

End of 42 months the 'sign' occurs in sun, moon, stars>Jesus comes/Armageddon

peacefulpete

When reading any of the three Synoptic versions we notice chunks of stock OT theophanic language salted amidst very specific details.

Some scholars have suggested that these chunks represent how the earliest Markan form actually read. That is, the response to the question posed to Jesus consisted largely of boilerplate OT theophanic (manifestations of divinity and judgement) language accompanying the appearance of the Son of Man:

There will be earthquakes ...famines...roaring and tossing of the sea...trumpet, darkness, failing sun and stars etc. Then the appearance of the Son of Man, which is itself a block of text from Daniel.

Exod. 19:16-18...thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, very loud trumpet blast ...mountain[b] trembled violently

Judg 5:4-5..the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds, the mountains quaked before the Lord

Is. 29:6..... the Lord Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest...

Ps.77:16-18 The waters saw you, God, and writhed; the very depths were convulsed. The clouds', thunder...the earth trembled and quaked.

Ps 18:7-18....the earth shook and trembled;..darkness, lightning. clouds.

Esther 1:1 (LXX)..voices and a noise, thunders and earthquake, tumult upon the earth.

Is 13:10..The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Ez 32:7,8...When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars: I will cover the sun with a cloud,and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you;

Is 5:30...In that day they will roar over it like the roaring of the sea. And if one looks at the land, there is only darkness and distress; even the sun will be darkened by clouds.

Joel 2:10,3: 15,16...the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened. and the stars no longer shine. ...roar, thunder ...army of locusts

Amos 5:18-20,8:9-11...day of the Lord, darkness not light. I make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight....famine

And of course, Rev. draws heavily on passages like these and repeats the imagery to accompany divine judgement/appearances.

Back to Mark 13. Again, a reader can't help but notice a contrast between these chunks of OT theophanic language and very specific and far less colorful descriptions of being flogged, being in courts, betrayal by family, Jerusalem being surrounded by Romans etc.

It would make a great deal of sense to conclude the original form of Mark included only the boilerplate theophanic language, (earthquakes, lightning, famine, cosmic darkness etc.) culminating in the appearance of the Son of man from Daniel.

This has been discussed before, but as time went on and the events of 70CE and 135CE came and went, it would be only natural to literalize some of that language and add to it with details about the Jewish wars throughout the Roaman world, the devastating earthquakes and how Christians were suffering. The theophanic language of God's appearance being accompanied with earthquakes, turned into a prophecy of earthquakes.

It seems more likely Mark 13 was harmonized with the later recensions, Matt and Luke than Mark having been expanded prior to their use of it. It just pushes out the dating too far.

Microsoft Word - Detering Mk 13 JHC 50.DOC (radikalkritik.de)

DesirousOfChange

Fiction anyone?

Beth Sarim

Armageddon is fictional.

Its not real..

Its only exploited to scare & manipulate people.

Vidqun

Duran, Revelation has a total of three beasts: 1) Beast from the sea to rule 42 months (Rev. 13:1, 5). 2) Beast from the earth (false prophet) (13:8). 3) Beast from the abyss (scarlet-colored wild beast) (11:7; 17:3, 7, 8). Beast from the sea would have been assimilated by Beast from the abyss because Jesus would dispatch only two at Amageddon, namely Beast from the abyss and the false prophet (19:19, 20).

So, how will we know when the great tribulation begins? When everybody is able to see the signs:

11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Lk. 21:11, 25-26 ESV)

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

Be Ready for His Coming

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