Vanderhoven7- “Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?”
No more than any other apocalyptic Christian denomination.
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Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vidiot
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peacefulpete
Now, I know that there is no way to prove the reconstruction I laid out but it does explain the odd flow of the section. Shifting from literal to metaphor, it also allows a possibility that an UrMark (early form of Mark) was written before the events of 70CE.
It's also perhaps relevant that the Gospels dance around a Messianic expectation that the Messiah would rebuild the Temple, (as we also discussed recently) and that language could have been easily reinterpreted as predicting the destruction of the Temple in 70CE.
I favor the idea that the early form of Mark included the standard apocalyptic language as it associates pretty well with the Son of Man motif that recurs throughout Mark. It is also simpler to suggest that an editor 'clarifies' and elaborates the older cryptic language than to see that prophetic language being secondary.
If that is so, then a redactor had only to very slightly modify 13:1-4. They simply removed the Messianic claim to rebuild the Temple. It could have read something like this:
As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down. and I will build it back in 3 days.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
The earth will quake, darkness and distress, pestilence and famine, the nations will roar like the sea. The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.This then would flow into the subsequent narrative of the arrest and charges of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of Man and to be the one who will rebuild the Temple.
After the events of 70 and 135CE the words might have taken new meaning. Hadn't he predicted the destruction of the Temple? But he couldn't have predicted to rebuild it, as this didn't happen. To deal with this the redacted Mark and Matt say the claim to rebuild the Temple never happened, it was a lie, John on the other hand dealt with this through the improbable suggestion he was referring to his body as the Temple.
Given the time that had past and the different nature of the 4th Gospel, it dispenses with the whole section. In fact, I suspect the author is chiding some who believed Christ was to immanently return to earth in some dramatic display.
John 16:
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
19 Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’? 20 Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. ...25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
The writer had effectively negated the whole topic as figurative. In some spiritual sense Jesus would be present with his followers, this text alone is not clear.
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Vanderhoven7
THE GREAT TRIBULATION
The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus
spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
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Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
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Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the
desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
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Albert Barnes comments: "Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple." it is time to flee Jerusalem.
Very little is ascribed the word holy in the gospels. God, Jesus, the city and it's temple uniquely qualify. God's holy presence in the temple remained until the death of Christ, when the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom (i.e. from above) exposing the fact that God's holy presence was removed and the temple desolate as Jesus ominous prophetic pronouncement indicated. (see Matthew 23:38)This act of God symbolized the permanent removal of God's presence accompanying the nations rejection of their messiah; Israel's greatest loss made this the worst unrepeatable disaster possible for Israel. The complete physical destruction of the holy temple (as a witness to the nations) ratified this divine rejection for the entire world to see for all time... to which the Dome of the Rock and the wailing wall continue to attest.
CONCLUSION: The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in history; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.People who try to make this a dual fulfillment make Jesus a Master wordsmith speaking literally to his generation and figuratively to ours.
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Duran
Duran, Revelation has a total of three beasts: 1) Beast from the sea to rule 42 months (Rev. 13:1, 5). 2) Beast from the earth (false prophet) (13:8). 3) Beast from the abyss (scarlet-colored wild beast) (11:7; 17:3, 7, 8). Beast from the sea would have been assimilated by Beast from the abyss because Jesus would dispatch only two at Amageddon, namely Beast from the abyss and the false prophet (19:19, 20).
It is the beast from the sea along with the beast from the earth (false prophet) that is said to be the two that are thrown into the fiery lake at Armagoodon. That said the beast from sea in Rev 13 is the same as the beast from Rev 17, the 8th king who rules for 42 months.
The beast is in the abyss when he receives the death-stroke. Then is out of the abyss when the death-stroke gets healed. It goes off into destruction when it gets thrown into the fiery lake. Revelation 17:8;13:3,8;19:20
[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]
[ 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]
So, how will we know when the great tribulation begins? When everybody is able to see the signs:
No that is not the case. You are mixing signs and events.
The 'signs' with the sun, moon, stars happen AFTER the GT and they serve to show Jesus is coming. The ones in fear at that time are the ones that took the MOTB during the 42-month rule. The ones that are lifting their head are those that refused the MOTB and underwent GT for doing so.
1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. 8th king 42-month rule GT
3. [24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.] cf. [25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”] cf. Revelation 6:12-17;19:17-21
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
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Vanderhoven7
Sammy deals with some objections... very entertaining but the truth is clear. Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.
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Vidqun
Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.
Vanderhoven, if I accept your version, then it means Matthew (and Jesus for that matter) lied. I'll stick to Matthew's version. Jesus' Second Coming is definitely a future event (cf. Matt. 24:29-31).
Duran, I see it differently. I follow the natural Revelation sequence in this case. Beast from the sea was first on the scene. It had a limited lifespan:
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5 ESV)
Note now the activities of Beast from the earth. It put up an image of Beast from the sea. In my mind that means that Beast from the sea is no more. It then gave breath to the image, the image now becoming a beast in its own right:
11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:11 ESV)
15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. (Rev. 13:15 ESV)The new beast is identified in Rev. 17 as the scarlet-colored wild beast, i.e., Beast from the abyss.
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Mikejw
me it is quite evident that the GT spoken about in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving Jews throughout the nations.
Some scripture is definitely not talking about ancient times but talking about the last days
Mat 24:14 can’t be talking about ancient Jerusalem as the good news had to be preached in the entire inhabited earth before the end would come
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Vanderhoven7
Yes, Matthew 24 verses 36 to the end deal with the end time parousia which is still future and will affect all of humanity.
Matthew 24:14. AND THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.
Was this sign fulfilled before Jerusalem's judgment?
The scripture indicates that prior to 70AD the gospel was spread throughout the world. Acts 2:5 Ro.1:8 Col 1:6, 23
This worldwide spreading of the gospel preceded the end of the Jewish economy and witnessed to it..i.e. that this was the result of the nations rejection of Christ.
(Mt. 24:14 - this Gospel of the Kingdom)
- Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. (Mt.4:23; Mt.9:35)
MIke, watch Sam's video and let me know what you think.
- Paul also taught the gospel of the kingdom which he clearly equates with the "gospel of grace". Acts 20:24,25
Mike, if you watch Sam's short video above I think you will find JW teaching on Matthew 24 collapses.
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Duran
Duran, I see it differently. I follow the natural Revelation sequence in this case. Beast from the sea was first on the scene. It had a limited lifespan:
Note now the activities of Beast from the earth. It put up an image of Beast from the sea. In my mind that means that Beast from the sea is no more. It then gave breath to the image, the image now becoming a beast in its own right:
The new beast is identified in Rev. 17 as the scarlet-colored wild beast, i.e., Beast from the abyss.If that is how you see it, it is because you are still stuck on WTS teachings and ignore Scriptures.
The lifespan of the beast from the sea is not limited to 42 months. The 42 months has to do with the said authority that it will be given after it gets healed.
Lifespan is: prior to death-stroke=was>>>>>>>death-stroke=is not>healed=out of the abyss>42-month authority>>after 42 months end kills 2 witnesses/battle with Jesus>thrown into lake=goes off into destruction
[ 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.]
[ 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.]
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[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[19 And I saw (1) the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And (1) the wild beast was caught, and along with it (2) the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of (1) the wild beast and those who worship (1) its image. While still alive, they (1,2) both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]
Note- There is the beast/false prophet (2) and the beast (1) that has a mark and image separate of it. The image is not a beast in itself.
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Vanderhoven7
@Vidqun,
" I'll stick to Matthew's version. Jesus' Second Coming is definitely a future event (cf. Matt. 24:29-31)."
Yes, the Parousia is a future event that will affect the whole world rather than just Jerusalem and Judaea. See verses 36 on.
Jesus separated these two judgments carefully. One you could flee from, one you could not, one you should know the exact time, one know one knows, one had many signs, one would be a total surprise, one would be in tumultuous times, one would be in normal times, people carrying on with normal activities, marrying, working in fields, one you would have to run from, one you would be taken from.