by Vanderhoven7 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ask a witness?
How many more times is Christ coming? Since He's already been here once and the 2nd coming is yet to happen.
How many more times does He come back. Is it once? Or twice? Since He's been taught to come "invisibly" in 1914. But every eye will see Him according to Revelation.
How many more times does Christ come back? 2,,,or more times?
I tell you,,,,,I used to get stumped!! When in field service with someone who ""knew"" their Bible.
Beth Sarim, good answer, it is hard to explain to a non-jw because they have not been brainwashed to accept the "adjustment" and "clarification" concept of interpretation by the WTS. They say they do not speak for their god, but in essence they do, implying what they say should not be questioned even if "seems" wrong. How could you expect a non-jw to accept any explanation the WTS makes for the changes. One of my aha moments. Can't their god get it right the first time!
Blondie,,um,,,no. They cant.
I believe the Lord Jesus Christ appeared a number of times in Old Testament times. Jehovah appeared in human form to Abraham, to Moses in the burning bush, to Nebuchadnezzar in the fiery furnace, to Samson's parents etc.
The high priest saw Jesus coming in power in Judgment against Jerusalem. Don't forget, in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai) in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.
The
great tribulation however is a one-time,non-repeatable
event in hisory; a fairly local event affecting the Jews
in and around Jerusalem
and leading to their death or dispersion
among the nations.
Be sure to enjoy Sammy on Matt 24
I can see Matthew 24:14 being localized to the known inhabited world and the tribulation meant for only fleeing Christians. The problem arises at Matthew 24:29-35 when the tribulation comes to an end for the Christians. It says they see something in orbit that blocks the sun and moon along with a figure of Jesus up there too. You would think other civilizations would report that spectacular event in their writings as well. It says all the tribes of the earth will be in fear of this event.
@Aclue
Notice that the sun darkening takes place immediately after the tribulation of AD 70
Of course this is figurative language often associated with apocalyptic literature.
29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN:
Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated. God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer shine for Israel of the flesh.
QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?
WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.
Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of Idumea, Isaiah writes: “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of such an insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt incorporates similar vivid language. “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used tobdescribe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel? Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64
OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL. Dan.7:13 says: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says: “And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64 Mat.16:28)
Vanderhoven, so where will you place the following? All pre- and post-70 CE?
"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 ESV)
26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken-- that is, things that have been made-- in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. (Heb. 12:26-27 ESV)
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:7, 14 ESV)
Beth Sarim, I was with my elder dad when a householder pointed out that scripture that says that every eye would see him. He explained that every eye would see him “with the eye of understanding.” 🤷♀️🤔 I knew even as a kid, that that was bull 💩
Bethsarim "Since He's already been here once and the 2nd coming is yet to happen."
There is no second coming of Jesus. Why would there be? There is no reason for it.
Sure he said to his apostles that he will return, but think about it. What good is telling them that he will return 2000 years later when they are not here? That's the problem, people don't think. They just see words and grab them. Jesus is returning or coming back and they adhere to that.
But that's not how it works.
John 14:2 "for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also,
if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will
receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."
Jesus said to the apostles that he will come again, but after he is killed, raised as a spirit and ascended and sat at his father's right hand. Then at some point he prepares a place for them., That was when he cast Satan and the demons from heaven. Then that allows for the resurrection to start.
So Jesus comes again (to them, the ones to whom he was speaking) by resurrecting them to him.
And Blahi, Where does it say "that every eye would see him"?
Oh, the same place where it says "those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him." Didn't those who pierced him die 2000 years ago? So this can not be taken literally. So why are you taking "Every eye will see him" literally?
Come on people. Be consistent here.
