Reasons for concluding that Watchtower is in (serious) financial trouble

by slimboyfat 151 Replies latest members private

  • Brokeback Watchtower
    Brokeback Watchtower

    Big time major bucks for cleaning up the Warwick chemical dump of PCB contamiants I'm sure:

    So yeah, the move to Warwick/Walkill over the last few decades has been a major loss to them in the long run and making those decisions during a real estate bubble, it didn't get them the profits they thought they were going to get. It's brought them some much needed press but didn't boost their image, reputation and income as much as they wanted.

    The words out all over the internet that they are a shunning mind control cult, I'm sure that doesn't help their credit score one iota.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Magnum thank you for this and for your post on my earlier thread. Comparing JWs to a biological (or ecological) system in crisis is an interesting idea. Perhaps David Voas was ahead of his time when he suggested JWs may experience collapse similar to the kind of collapse shoals of fish may experience when they reach a limit.

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/172862/british-sociologist-predicts-possible-collapse-jehovahs-witness-numbers

    The idea of systems collapse more generally is interesting to apply to JWs. I've long been fascinated by books such as "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Jospeh Tainter, and "Collpase" by Jared Diamond. Often such collapses don't have a single cause, but are the result of the various crises compounding one another. Which certainly rings true of JWs' current situation as they face credibility problems, scandals, declining and aging membership, financial problems, leadership problems, on and on. All of the factors compounding one another, possibly to the point of existential crisis.

    Thanks jwfacts, could you provide the sources of the data for Australian donations? Was that donations for the worldwide work alone, apart from donations for local KH and projects and so on? If I understand the United Kingdom figures correctly, IBSA gets around £20 million a year on average, which works out at just under £150 per publisher. And as you say these are relatively wealthy countries. Most developing countries are likely to be a fraction of that.

  • flipper
    flipper

    Not only has the WT Society had to pay out numerous child abuse lawsuits which suck them dry but they've had to resort to stealing kingdom halls away from JW congregations consolidating Witnesses to travel to congregations at further distance.

    I mean it's ridiculous. Damn WT Society sold most all of their buildings to Trumps son in law for what ? 700 million ? Then with the takeovers and reselling of kingdom halls - WTF? Where's all the money going ? Are WT's legal fees to defend against child abuse cases bleeding them dry ? Or is someone at the top hiding some heavy duty $$$ in offshore accounts ? Makes a person wonder

  • jwleaks
    jwleaks
    13. We know that Watchtower invest heavily in the stock market. And we know that very many investors lost a lot of money around the crash in 2007/8. We don't know the details but, unless Watchtower are lucky, or very skilled, it's safe to assume they lost some money. Perhaps a lot, considering all the cuts and rhetoric that followed.

    Here's some points to keep in mind when considering the above. After the global financial crisis (GFC), and for a few years the UK Charity Commission commended Watchtower Britain for increasing their net worth while other organizations lost money. This may have been due to donations 'pouring in' from Watchtower branches located in unstable countries. However, the GFC may not have hit individual JWs financially as hard as it did others because JWs are generally lower educated with less wealth and minimal stock market investments. This is important as it is possible that the GFC did not affect actual donations from JWs as much as is made out.

    Granted the home-based bookstudy meeting was dropped and the reason given was the cost of travel for individual JWs. It is more probable, 99.99%, that legal liability was the reason. For example, a family that opened their door to the bookstudy arrangement would have a right to know if any convicted sex offenders were assigned to their group.

    Watchtower financials are subject to error. Consider this as a example: For many years Watchtower Britain regularly received yearly donations of €6.7 million from Watchtower Germany. At the same time the IBSA regularly received donations of £6.7 million from Watchtower Britain.

    Sounds like a sizeable €13.2 / £13.2 million donation. But . . .

    The IBSA would print £6.7 million in literature of which they would donate to JWs in Germany for distribution through Europe. This way the same 6.7 million going around and around like a merry-go-round. This is not how you do business. This is tax avoidance. Eventually the distribution costs would catch up.

    Each branch would report to the uneducated GB their income from donations. Looks good on paper but the same dollar or pound or euro was being donated over-and-over-and-over again.

    The bubble has burst.

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    You make some very good points SBF , I just hope you are spot on with your analysis .

    And just for the record I and my family donated very little money in the 33 years involvement,I valued our time and energy was a sufficient contribution.

    After all we had to pay for fuel to and from the weekly meetings FS , Assembly`s ,Accomadation ,and International Assembly travel expenses. Etc,Etc.

  • The Fall Guy
    The Fall Guy

    @ LV101 - when I became Literature Servant a few years ago, I was handed a sheet with a list of all the "recommended donations" [prices] for literature - in case anyone wanted to know how much would be expected.

  • freddo
    freddo

    Well I finally stopped my regular £25 monthly donation to the local hall (which I thought was fair as I used a seat and walked on the carpet and used the toilets) when the elders did what they were told by HQ which was to put a resolution (nodding sheep time) to the cong transferring the KH to the Watchtower Grab and Take Society.

    My parents loaned (and turned into donations) thousands when the local cong built the hall or refurbished it.

    Stuff 'em. They can whistle from now on.

  • The Fall Guy
    The Fall Guy

    Excellent post and analysis of potential causes of the WTBT's financial situation, Slimboy.

    Whether the cult is lying about its situation or not, remains to be seen, but as a European, I cannot get my head around how a U.S. registered charity can be exempted from having to publish its income and expenditure. Such a scenario is begging to be exploited by fraudsters and charlatans. Perhaps this has been clarified before I joined.

    P.S. By coincidence this point counters the suggestion that "faders" comments to active J.W.'s have little or zero effect: during my fade I have witnessed to a few close J.W. friends about certain doctrines and practices. Success?

    Here are some of the results I have been informed about: 5 long-term ones have ceased giving donations - and two of them are high-earning professionals. Three individuals have stated that they do not want a J.W. funeral, as they view it as a recruitment talk. At least two others are convinced that all J.W.'s are included in the new covenant. If seeds aren't planted, nothing can grow. I wish someone on the inside had done so with me years ago. Finding out on your own isn't the easiest of paths to walk.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Thoughtful, well-argued OP premised largely on JW organization being 'up front' about its finances to back up their begging, did they? I can grant the GB were direct about the organization's claimed liquid financial state - but they didn't front up with an audited report of all their vast investments. Have the yearbook accounts of financial expenditure in the 'kingdom work' ever been seriously scrutinized? Moreover, speaking of the older possibly more loyal Witnesses dying off, untold numbers of them bequeath entire or large parts of their estates to the organization. Unknown is how much that alone gives the organization each year.

    To the best of my knowledge, no insider with knowledge of the financial health - or otherwise - of the organization has ever defected and spilled the beans. Someone who 'should' have known, Ray Franz was notoriously tight-lipped about the organization's wealth.

    Hence, as well argued as the OP is, it lacks definitive evidence about the veracity of the GB's 'disclosures'. I have never known the GB to ever disclose more than is ever fully expedient. I remain unconvinced their sanitized reports on JW organization were anywhere near the 'full' picture. This remains a religious organization steeped in secrecy, expediency and bottomless greed.

    And, yes, I'd have to agree with others that your average JW is stingey in his or her generosity. I'd guess that had an astute Chuck Russell or Fraud- God Rutherford introduced tithing and coated it in Scriptural appeal, you'd never hear a pleading squeak about needing money. Or, given that all religions are 'snares and rackets', perhaps JW organization would be even more inclined to beg for little Sophie's ice cream money.

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo

    Great post SBF.

    I will say that that when they called for contributions etc I don't believe for one minute that it was "needed" there and then...they have the cash now...they are anticipating things and shoring up before they actually need the cash.

    Ditto with the comment about the sale of property funding them only for a few months, that is a lie.

    Your post does highlight they have financial issues as we all know but again I don't think it will be their downfall at all.

    I'd expect more cost-cutting and changes to come with more reduction in printing to the point the Bethel family is very low and very little Bethel HQ around the world.

    Consolidation of KH's and a push to the dubs to contribute along with the cuts to DO's, special pioneers etc will help...I suspect these changes are just now beginning to show in their accounts.

    As I say I believe they will get to the point where they cut costs so much that they will survive financially...but that time and the reduction in everything will leave many dubs questioning their faith.

    But posts like these are great to bookmark, thank you for putting the effort in to get it all in one thread.

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