How important is the Devil to God?

by Narkissos 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Narkissos

  A few days ago, on the thread about ?A new view of the Trinity?, RubaDub voiced his disappointment as to the lack of any really new view, such as a fourth member who could turn it into a Quadrinity or replace any of the members of the Trinity in case of emergency. At the moment I just laughed, but later on I thought the Devil could be a very good candidate.

  Just think: under the influence of Persian dualism, shortly after Yhwh, the god of ancient Israel, became God in the absolute sense (say in the 6 th century BC, with Second Isaiah), Satan (from a common Hebrew noun meaning ?opposer?) also emerged as a permanent antagonistic figure (in Chronicles, Zechariah, or Job ? and even more obviously in the so-called ?intertestamental literature?).

  The new monotheistic deal of early Christianity, which eventually led to the Trinity synthesis in the main Church, did not change much to that. The Satan character, mostly under the Greek adjective/noun diabolos (meaning etymologically ?divider? but more commonly ?slanderer? , and from which the English ?Devil? derives), remained as a ?fourth person? in the metaphysical drama. He was generally thought of as external to God, but not always. Luther, for instance, seems to identify the Devil to ?God?s left hand?.

  So my question is: how important is the Devil to God? Or, can monotheism avoid being a practical dualism? Could a really absolute God (such as Second Isaiah meant him to be, saying: ?I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things?), be tenable in the long run?

  On this question comments by theists and atheists would be equally welcome. Thanks to all!
• 

  stillajwexelder

  Well all ancient Trinities usually have a female component --the eraly catholic church proposed God/Yhwh/Jehovah the father - -- -- JESUS the son and Mary the mother -- Hence the Hail Mary -- Satan did not figure

  Egypt was of course Osiris - Isis - and Horus --- read GenISIS - -forgotten the author unfortunately -- it does go into the holy grail -the merovingian dynasty etc. and all that stuff unfortunately
• 

  frenchbabyface

  It seems that every control freak religion have need a devil for a god (in this context to me they work together)
  even in phylosophical religions (good and bad works together as balance)
• 

  RunningMan

  Satan is every bit as important to religion as God is. In fact, maybe more so.

  Here's why. Every good story needs a hero and a villain. Without Lex Luther, Superman would just be a guy who flies around in his underwear. Without a villain, the hero has no one to demonstrate his abilities against. In short, there would be no story.

  Satan is also necessary to explain some of the logical difficulties of the universe. If God is perfect and he created everything, then why is there wickedness and suffering? - That's right, bring on the villain.

  Without Satan tying us to the railroad tracks, God would just be prancing around in paradise. Not much of a story.
• 

  frenchbabyface

  Without Lex Luther, Superman would just be a guy who flies around in his underwear

  ... ... good one !
  
  I agree totally by the way
• 

  Narkissos

  Thanks RunningMan and FrenchBabyFace (ma voisine!): I agree with your comments. As Sartre had the Devil say: "The good is already done. I do invent."

  I also thought of the Devil (etymologically) as a kind of principle of diversification or drifting ("différance" as Derrida spells the word), watching that nothing is ever perfectly "accurate", "true" or fitting any satisfying system. In that sense the action of Yhwh at Babel seems very "diabolic" to me...

  Stillajwxelder: about the feminine element in God, Yhwh's probable consort Ashera (in the old polytheistic context) was mentioned a few days ago on several threads. Even the orthodox Trinity may retain something of it. The theme of Yhwh's Wisdom, personified as a woman in Proverbs and Wisdom of Solomon, is an essential part of the textual background for the (masculine) Logos Christology. In Hebrew the Spirit (ruach) was feminine. Although Trinitarian thinking first works in Greek where the Spirit (pneuma) is neutral, it still associates it to a feminine representation of the Church, or to Mary's figure as you said. Even Protestants who deny any role to Mary can develop a very similar "motherly" talk about "Grace"... Seems the feminine in God is always repressed and re-emergent in Western tradition...

  Back to the Devil, I really hope we'll get comments from believers. Because I feel many who believe in God wouldn't readily accept believing in the Devil too. Can it work though? I wonder.
• 

  Goshawk

  The sioux had a saying that translated something like this:
  
  The warrior is judged by the strength of his enemies.
  
  
  So if you want to have a great and powerful god you must have a powerful antagonist.
  
  Goshawk
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Sooo,

  How do you figure the Jewish religion who doesn't really have Saan in the Christian mode. Satan, within Judaism, is an angel of God who does God's bidding...rather than oppossing God.

  The Hail Mary has NOTHING to do with Mary being seen as divine by Catholics (she isn't)...this is just some of your JW prejudice hanging on. The first half of the hail mary is taken directly from scripture, the second half simply ask's mary to pray for us. How does that make her divine?

  French Fry....you seem to have to whole "religion is the opiate of the masses" thing going on...not only is Karl Marx boring...he was also quite wrong.
• 

  asleif_dufansdottir

  not only is Karl Marx boring...he was also quite wrong

  About what? As a social theory (as opposed to a diagram for building a state), Marxist critique of how power and domination is involved in labor relations is very insightful. Sure he was an idealist, but that doesn't detract from his theory...for example, his notion of surplus value as being the difference between the monetary value of the work and the pay of the worker is actually pretty intuitive...once you get past it being Marx most people readily agree it makes sense.

  In my experience, most people (especially Americans) can't get past a knee-jerk McCarthy-ist reaction to the mention of Marx, and have difficulty discussing him.
• 

  Sirona

  Frenchbabyface:

  You said:

  It seems that every control freak religion have need a devil for a god (in this context to me they work together)
  even in phylosophical religions (good and bad works together as balance)

  I do not agree. There are religions who do not see "The Devil" or "Bad" as an entity. You mention the philosophical idea that good and bad works together in a balance - well being pagan I would say that your summary of that idea is over simplified at best.

  I can only speak from my own standpoint. As a pagan, I don't acknowledge a harmony or a balance between divinities or entities who are "good" and "bad". I don't even think that there are two forms of energy that are "good" and "bad". What I believe is that there are different types of energy. Death is not "bad" for instance, because death can be beneficial and can produce necessary change - it is transition. Similarly fear serves a purpose which isn't always negative (e.g. the fear we feel when teetering on the edge of a high cliff....causing us to back off for our own safety).

  Mainstream Christianity is the modern result of ideas from years ago of an all loving supreme God and an all evil Satan. Not all religions adhere to that idea.

  Sirona