As far as your picture goes. Do you really believe that the majority of the hundreds of thousands of women that participated fall into that third category?
So, the Womens March ... What Is It For?
by Simon 401 Replies latest social current
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bohm
Simon:
The neo-nazis / extreme right were not any threat, they were a fringe of a fringe who could barely fill a small room. You will never eradicate such groups completely but they were really nothing.
I agree! (with the fringe-bit. Not the small room-bit since I do not know).
The nut-left created themselves because they kept being given more and more power and influence. When that happens, it never gets to a point where people say "OK, thanks, we have enough now!". They want more ... and more
I 100% agree
At some point, there is a rejection of it because it all goes too far. Now, for some people, you're a nazi just for being white or a rapist just for being a man and having the audacity to exist.
I 100% agree. Those people are irrational. They are hurting the public discourse and prevents us from focusing on real issues, even issues they care about (Treatment of women in Islam).
But here is the flip-side.
The nut-left grew (as a matter of fact) in large parts by convincing its adherents that the Nazis and KKK were really not just a bunch of hillbillies in trailers in the backwater of nowhere but that "they" were actually in control... that society was systematically oppressing women, that racism is as ingrained in society as ever before and if you do not agree you are part of the problem.
That propaganda mostly consisting of real, actual grievances that were repeated again and again. And so the nut-left created an alternative reality where everyone else were not the enemy and there was a high demand for ideological purity. That is why you can de-platform a woman like Hirsi Ali: While they recognize (at some level) this is unfair to her, they do so for a higher cause (fight oppression of all women as they see it).
Causally, the Nazis, the real violence against women etc. is involved in that story, but that does not mean you can fix things by fixing the Nazis. Just like poverty and oppression is involved in many Islamic terrorists stories if you go back, that does not mean we fix the problem of Islamic terrorism by making it about poverty.
Then we get to the nut right... Yes, causally the nut-left is involved. The breitbart propaganda's solution for everything IS to point fingers to the nut-left after all and you can read the comment thread to see that the liberals have morphed into something as scary as the patriarchy for the typical breitbot.
However, the nut-right is also full of lies, exagerations, propaganda. Often homegrown, but in part also systematically spread by a hostile government... the same crazy you see on the left is at work on the right, just give it time and you are going to see the calls for ideological purity. Did you know it is widely known on the alt-right that McCain is a senile old fool? Watch the language. Notice how when someone from the GOP points out Trump lies they are "attacking" Trump. What should we do when a lapsed soul attack the dear leader?
Then there is the science-denialism... the conspiracies (voter fraud & birtherism)... the thinly veiled racism (just read the comments).. the (and this is the big one!) endless pessimism about everything. Sounds familiar?
All this has been around for decades, and is being fed into the SJW propaganda mill who lab it up and tries to paint every conservative in this mold.
It is the same type of crazy and errors that are going around. We can't say that the cause of the nut-left is the nut-right (even though they figure in their propaganda) any less than we can say the cause of the nut-right is the nut-left (even though they figure in their propaganda).
Right now I focus on the nut-right because they happen to be the ones in power.
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Simon
My position on this march is that I support the majority of those that went. I stand against the extremists on the left and right. I believe the left needs to address their issues and galvanize. I see this march as a step in that direction. You see it as the wrong direction period from what I've seen you post to this point.
I support the majority of those that marched, they have the right to march. They had that right due to other peoples activism many years before.
I'm still waiting to find out what the march itself was actually for to decide if I support that or not though.
Right now it seems the main goal was to promote identity politics and differences, to carve people up into groups which is what the dems just love to do.
Already it's the new truth, that shalt not be questioned or doubted or inconvenienced with facts.
Anything the left does to avoid addressing their own issues is the wrong direction.
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Simon
Do you really believe that the majority of the hundreds of thousands of women that participated fall into that third category
Yes, absolutely. Look at the comments on social media. Look at the people applauding and not denouncing certain extremist rhetoric as well as the promotion of extremist ideology. These are not true feminists.
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azor
Wow quantity of posts on social media, lack of main stream media, and officials public condemnation is the majority. No wonder your posts are so condemnatory. What a cynical view. I believe skepticism is always the best path, but cynicism leads to dogmatism.
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bohm
Right now it seems the main goal was to promote identity politics and differences, to carve people up into groups which is what the dems just love to do.
you can't see a smidgen of irony in that statement?
Anything the left does to avoid addressing their own issues is the wrong direction.
Well, if you believe that I assume you also believe this statement: "Anything the right does to avoid addressing their own issues is the wrong direction." ?
I fully support calling out sillyness on the left --I think I have made that abundantly clear on this thread-- but what we call out must not be left/right sillyness, it must be sillyness and lies and propaganda itself.
You yourself brought up the concept that idiocy matters more or less depending on how much power it has (the nazis that could fit in a room statement). I also subscribe to that idea. That's why I think the lunatics in the white house needs to be held accountable.
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Simon
The nut-left grew (as a matter of fact) in large parts by convincing its adherents that the Nazis and KKK were really not just a bunch of hillbillies in trailers in the backwater of nowhere but that "they" were actually in control... that society was systematically oppressing women, that racism is as ingrained in society as ever before and if you do not agree you are part of the problem.
And the promotion of many of those lies went straight to the top, to Obama. Trump is his legacy.
That propaganda mostly consisting of real, actual grievances that were repeated again and again.
There are a few genuine cases of injustice, but yes, lots of grievances being constantly stoked by those seeking to benefit from it. Also lots of false stories that were not filtered out but promoted to the level of "legitimate" by a political party that wanted to divide and stoke racism and unrest.
It doesn't matter that the baseless grievances can't be fixed, they have ridden that donkey for the past 40 years and think it still has legs.
And so the nut-left created an alternative reality where everyone else were not the enemy and there was a high demand for ideological purity. That is why you can de-platform a woman like Hirsi Ali: While they recognize (at some level) this is unfair to her, they do so for a higher cause (fight oppression of all women as they see it).
They do so because they become the oppressors, the very thing they claim to fight. They claim they want to protect freedoms but then deny the freedom of speech to others who they don't agree with (ironically, because they speak out against the oppressive regimes that have aligned themselves with the left).
This is where, regardless of what you know about any issue, you can discover a lot about the veracity of the arguments from either side. Who is happy to have a debate vs who just wants to call people names, be outraged and shut people up?
Causally, the Nazis, the real violence against women etc. is involved in that story, but that does not mean you can fix things by fixing the Nazis. Just like poverty and oppression is involved in many Islamic terrorists stories if you go back, that does not mean we fix the problem of Islamic terrorism by making it about poverty.
I agree. Islam cannot be fixed. It is what it is, has been that for hundreds of years and will always be that. Any attempts to reform it have failed and will fail - it just had whatever reformation it could and ISIS is now the new purer form of Islam. It is more insidious than nazism or communism or pretty much any other 'ism' and is the biggest threat facing society today. Unfortunately, Trump was the only viable candidate willing to take a stand on it.
Then we get to the nut right... Yes, causally the nut-left is involved. The breitbart propaganda's solution for everything IS to point fingers to the nut-left after all and you can read the comment thread to see that the liberals have morphed into something as scary as the patriarchy for the typical breitbot.
Yes, they should have been left on the fringe and not elevated in importance. The reason that has happened is because of the failures of the main-stream media, usually liberal-siding, to be honest and tell the truth. So people lost trust and the breitbarts filled the void.
However, the nut-right is also full of lies, exagerations, propaganda. Often homegrown, but in part also systematically spread by a hostile government... the same crazy you see on the left is at work on the right, just give it time and you are going to see the calls for ideological purity.
I agree, but they are usually not so stupid or self-harming.
Did you know it is widely known on the alt-right that McCain is a senile old fool?
Maybe because he is? I thought everyone knew that ...
Watch the language. Notice how when someone from the GOP points out Trump lies they are "attacking" Trump. What should we do when a lapsed soul attack the dear leader?
And yet many that you would describe as "right" also attack Trump and criticize him. I don't think most people on the left are capable of imagining that everyone else doesn't automatically see everything through their eyes, with their simplistic view of every issues. Things can be nuanced to them or multi-dimensional. Trump wanting strong borders is not racist, but the leftists can't imagine anyone can view things any other way because it involves brown people or that because someone wants some of the things Trump wants, that they must therefore support him in every policy whatever he says and does.
Is that because that is how they tended to be with Obama? All in and religious devotion / support?
Then there is the science-denialism... the conspiracies (voter fraud & birtherism)... the thinly veiled racism (just read the comments).. the (and this is the big one!) endless pessimism about everything. Sounds familiar?
Science denialism is the most important issue and one of genuine concern. Birtherism? Who cares, ignore it or don't ignore it. Think it's racist or don't.
Voter fraud - now we get to the important idiocy of the left. They have already painted themselves into a position that is untenable if it turns out there is widespread voter fraud. If it is found in democratic stronghold states then the dems are in real trouble. It gives Trump the ammunition he needs to win on this issue, on illegal immigrants, the wall, the whole thing and rightly so.
It also delegitimizes any criticism of his win, and also, perhaps, of Obama.
If the dems have cheated, and I don't trust that they would not because we know they are happy to do that, then they are fools and deserve to be cast into the political wilderness for it.
All this has been around for decades, and is being fed into the SJW propaganda mill who lab it up and tries to paint every conservative in this mold.
Yes, they label everyone they don't like a nazi and then say it's OK to punch nazis in the face. They are the jack-booted thugs now. Much of it is done "socially" more than physically but it is still intended to silence people and they are still thugs.
It is the same type of crazy and errors that are going around. We can't say that the cause of the nut-left is the nut-right (even though they figure in their propaganda) any less than we can say the cause of the nut-right is the nut-left (even though they figure in their propaganda).
I don't think the right is because of the left and vice verse per-se, but the behaviour of either drives normal people to vote for the candidate that leans in one direction or the other.
You can't escape the sad fact that the result of 8 years of Obama and the left is a lurch to the right. That is a rejection of something.
Right now I focus on the nut-right because they happen to be the ones in power.
Convenient? Did you focus on the nut-left when they were?
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bohm
Simon: I think at this point we just have to agree to disagree on this issue...
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Simon
I agree.
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Berengaria
I can tell you exactly what it was about. We believe him. And quite frankly if you have been following his cabinets picks and executive orders in the last few days, we are right to. Issues at stake are equal rights and protections under the law for everyone. Climate Change. Education. Clean food and water. An economy that works for ALL. Etc. etc. etc. We were there to say we are watching. We are engaged, and we are not going to stand by quietly while the progress of the last hundred years is dismantled.