What are some Bible verses that contradict (or weaken) the DF policy?

by somebodylovesme 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Good ones. I especially like the prodigal son story because I can repeat it fairly accurately without looking it up, and the fruit of the spirit in Galatians. There is no law against kindness.

    Here are a few more nuggets.

    Matthew 18:21-34 NIV
    Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. ?Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

    "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' he servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

    "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

    "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

    I think the JW's have so much trouble around forgiveness, because they believe their debt of sin is never paid in full. They continue to slave under the old law, hoping for redemption through heavily completed time cards.

    I just noticed your original question. Here is the verse you were thinking about.

    Matthew 9:10-13 NIV
    While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Perhaps Matthew 13:24ff could help:

    He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?' He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.
    Let both of them grow together until the harvest;
    and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.' "

    But, to be honest, there is much intolerance, and exclusion, in the Bible itself (including this text). So I think the best answer will always be a shrug.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    From Jesus:

    If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (the detailed truth is a big jw no no - it won't be discussed - don't want to 'infect' the others an' all) ; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (i.e. someone new to you, not of you, but treated afresh - with a clean slate, and someone likely to require some of your worldly goods).

    Jws heard "Treat them like scumbags, like you already do to those people you think are scumbags"

    That religion is like someone's toilet

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    I'm going to share some excerpts of a 22 letter that I sent to the GB on May 31,1999. Bear with me.

    Bottom of page 20

    "In conclusion, I like to draw your attention to the account of the man who committed incest at 1 Corinthians chapter five. Paul on verse thirteen says, "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves," In chapter six Paul moves the spiritual brothers to shame for not correcting trivial matters, a good lesson to keep in mind for a lot of senseless disputes in the congregation.

    Top of page 21

    The account of this brother that was 'removed' picks up at 2 Corinthians 2:5-7 begining with verse six, Paul says, "This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary now, you should kindly forgive and comfort (him), that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him."

    By the way, I'm not being facetious for the questions that I am about to ask.

    Let me begin by asking this question, what time frame had elapsed since the time that this man was 'removed' to the time he was 'received' back in the congregation? One year? Two years? Three years? Would you be believe it was a matter of a few months! According to the 'All Inspired and Beneficial' publication, the time frame for writing the first and second Corinthians was, as page 214 paragraph one says, "Not many months had passed since the writing of the first letter to the Corinthians." Do you get the picture?

    My next question is, if attending meetings is a prerequisite to repentance and so highly important to these elders, WHY are there so many details missing in this account when it comes to reinstating a brother/sister? For instance, the account doesn't say he was repentant, we only assume. It was also the majority who gave the rebuke. There's nothing nothing in that account that says; he had to attend meetings to be forgiven, is there? How do you explain the shortness of time of his return? The Apostle Paul knew by hiw own personal experience how Jehovah showed him underserved kindness and he now was going to imitate his father's qualities of showing mercy and justice to his brother that had been removed of only a few months. Paul had no personal grudge against his brother.

    Brothers, I have always found it difficult to understand how we can work so hard in finding the sheep, spend so much time in studying with them and bring them into the organization and then one false step on their part, wham, they are zapped, expelled." This is not the end of the letter.

    Here is a few interesting side notes for your reading. On page 15 I said, "Brothers, there's no need for me to go into details about how many times throughout the organizations history brothers have pinpointed dates about the end of the world. Tell me, how many brothers were wrong? Tell me, why did these brothers pinpointed dates when Jesus words were very emphatic at Matthew 24:36 saying, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows...only the Father? The publications since the early beginings have always posted dates, how many of the brothers were wrong? In the recent Watchtower of May 1, 1999, page 21 paragraph six and the second to the last sentence reads, "This end is unquestionably coming, even though we cannot pinpoint a date..."

    What took the brothers so long to understand Jesus words at Matt 24:36? It's like some people who cannot take a NO for an answer, what part of NO is it that they do not understand? What part of "nobody knows" that is written did the brothers not understand all these years? Do you get the picture? Please do not think I'm being sarcastic or insulting, I'm desperately trying to drive home my points. Is it not also written, 'make sure of all things?" (1Thess 5:21)

    I also made a strong defense against the use of the scripture in Acts 26:20 for disfellowshipping which reads, "...I went bringing the message that they should repent and turn to God by doing works that befit repentance."

    On page 12 I said, "I have tried for the life of me to figure out how this scripture can be used to disfellowship someone for not attending meetings. My wife has NOT been attending meetings for months, in fact, I have attended more meetings than my wife and I still can't reinstated because the elders do not have enough moxie to say, "......we will not reinstate you becuase you are not regularly attending meetings because meetings is a prerequisite to repentance." Instead, they use vague terms such as ; well you haven't manifested a pattern that would warrant reinstatement."

    As to the above scripture, Acts 26:20 I said this on page 13. "I'm trying to figure out how anyone can be expelled by using this scripture especially when the Apostle Paul was speaking to a non-Christian, in defense of his faith! This scripture, Acts 26:20 and its application nowhere resembles the scripture of Acts 15:28, 29, where it's directed to fellow spiritual brothers. Was King Agrippa a fellow anointed Christian? What did King Agrippa know about meetings and repentance? How can these brothers violate the rule at 1 Corinthians 4:6 which says, "Do not go beyong the things that are written" and get away with it? Could you and would you kindly refer me to any written material in the scriptures or the publication of the orgainzation that says, "attending meetings is a prerequisite to repentance?" In fact, the Watchtower of April 15, 1999 page 30, asks the question under, 'DO YOU REMEMBER' "What must one do to receive God's forgiveness for wrongdoing?" In part it says, "...A repentant spirit and a desire to right the wrong."

    The closest I came to any material about meeting attendance is found in the Watchtower of March 1, 1998 page 19 paragraph 17 and the last sentence of that paragraph reads, "AS FAR AS THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES PERMIT, THEY FIND DELIGHT IN BEING REGULAR ATTENDANCE AT CHRISTIAN MEETINGS."

    As I said, this letter is 22 pages in length. I got no answer. Did I expect any? NO!

    Guest 77

  • somebodylovesme
    somebodylovesme

    Wow, again, thanks everyone. Guest77, your letter looks like it was extraordinary.

    I am saving all these for now, because I fear I might need to use them in the future...

    SLM

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    SBLM, the excerpts of that letter is nothing compared to all the previous letters I've written. I've saved them all because I know one day I'll use them. I could make a play out of it.

    Guest 77

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    in a book study meeting it occurred to me that the policy about not speaking to apostates and the DF'd had to be wrong

    after all, who was THE most apostate being in the universe? no not my ex wife...but close, yes SATAN....

    and when he tried to seduce Jesus by a bible debate, did Jesus run and hide and say I cannot speak to you, you are an apostate and DF'd from heaven? hell no.... he confronted him directly and supposedly set the example for us...

    when I asked this of an elder...he scowled, pointed an angry finger and said in a harsh voice, you are standing on THIN ICE

    reminds me of how they made fun of catholic clergy who could not answer difficult questions.

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77


    Yes Zen, and he (YHWH) Gen 3:21, "...proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and for his wife and to clothe them."

    Gen 4:1, "Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said, "I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah."

    YHWH did all this when they had sin against him! He didn't abandoned them in their sinful state!

    How can the org. say they imitate their Father?

    Guest 77

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