did Jesus exist and does it matter? (page 3)

elamona

If I am not mistaken didn't almost all of the original 12 apostles suffer violent deaths due to their belief in and preaching about Jesus? Didn't Paul? I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anyone WILLINGLY dying for something they KNEW to be a hoax or fable. Would you be willing to die for a fable or a hoax? I don't think I'd have the courage to die for something that I KNEW to be true since I'm pretty much a gutless person who would do just about anything to avoid being tortured or killed. I REALLY don't like pain.

Amazing

ThiChi,

Excellent comments. I liked your summary of the historical references. Specifically, this caught my eye:

" ... and Josephus (Against Apion, Wars of the Jews). None of these would have offered occasion to mention Jesus."

Josephus does mention Jesus twice in his works. Some critics have tried to prove they two references are spurious. Yet, others have been able to make good counter-arguments. And as you noted in your first comment, there is too much history written about Jesus to say that he did not exist. Even Jews to this day acknowledge that Jesus existed. The real issue is whether Jesus was all that the Christian writers claimed him to be.

Jim W.

gumby

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anyone WILLINGLY dying for something they KNEW to be a hoax or fable

Hi elamona,

Who said these ones who died......KNEW it was a hoax? Many believe the gospels were written WELL after jesus time....or that the writers were at least not contemporaries of Jesus. All original writings about him do not exist. Also....if the Jesus story is fabricated, then could not the life stories of Paul and others be fables also? Where is the proof that these characters existed as the bible explains them.......outside of christian writings?

Gumby

LittleToe

So Christian writings about Christian subjects are discreditable because they are.. Christian?

What about Roman writings about Romans? Greek writings about Greeks?

What makes Christian authors so much more suspect than their equally religious neighbours?

Jim:

The real issue is whether Jesus was all that the Christian writers claimed him to be.

Agreed. That seems a bit more like it.

peacefulpete

Noone questions whether there existed cults of Jesus, there were many. Their views were even more diverse than those today. The existance of a cult does not however suggest the doctrine of incarnation to human form be true. Many very early Xtians denied this adamantly. Those that find the questions laughable would benefit from reading "The Jesus Puzzle". by Earl Doherty. He has a web site that is quite extensive. Any objections raised here and many more are considered. While I feel it is too early to completely rule out the idea that someone named Jesus existed (many Jesuses in history)I feel the case is compelling that even the foundation of the story is a conflation of Jewish revolutionary legends and solar mystery cult.

gumby

So Christian writings about Christian subjects are discreditable because they are.. Christian?

LT....Christian writers made bold claims of a real historical Jesus.......and their stories do not jive. As you know,....the gospel stories vary in their accounts......which cause much speculation as to their validity. Non Christian writers denounced christian writers for copying the pagans. Had Jesus (as the bible describes him) been a real person..........would the non-christians had good reason to deny him in their writings? Why?

Ya bastard!

Gumby

zen nudist

Quite simply, one must ignore a great deal of evidence, and treat what evidence is left most unfairly, in order to deny that Jesus existed

you know I have heard this BULL$#!+ parrotted over and over again, but not ONCE does anyone ever include what that evidence actually is and if they did you would see that it amounts to nothing more than hearsay, rumor and myth. And just because many are satisfied with that does not mean it proves Jesus was more than a popular story... a million opinions does not make a single fact.

if you carefully read the article I pointed out, it meantions that most scholars accept that Jesus was a real person, however they also accept that what is known about him is next to nothing and the line between him existing and not is thin for them as well...and there are many listed who did cross that line.

A final consideration is that we have very little information from first-century sources to begin with

and finally don't you think that if Jesus were the pivitol figure the bible pretends, that his dad would have been able to make his existance a rock solid fact without so many controversies?

If I am not mistaken didn't almost all of the original 12 apostles suffer violent deaths due to their belief in and preaching about Jesus? Didn't Paul? I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anyone WILLINGLY dying for something they KNEW to be a hoax or fable. Would you be willing to die for a fable or a hoax? I don't think I'd have the courage to die for something that I KNEW to be true since I'm pretty much a gutless person who would do just about anything to avoid being tortured or killed. I REALLY don't like pain.

did ANY of them actually exist beyond the stories? were they 12 zodiac signs brought to life...the gospels do not even agree on the names of the 12 if you compare them.

and as to people dying, how many mormons died for a golden magic tablet they never saw?

how many JWs died without blood transfusions for a faith in an organization which is not held by any other?

Josephus

lets assume Josephus is not a 4th cent christian forgery....what does it actually show?

that the story about Jesus was already circulating in 57CE... so what? it does not mean Jesus was a real person. Would historians in NY mention mormon's have a book from golden plates make these magical plates real?

and which Jesus? the name Jesus was 3rd most popular and its also interesting to note how dishonest translators are for translating one Jesus and the other 3 as Joshua when they all have the same name...making it seem like Jesus was a unique name.

seven006

LT and Elamona,

Good questions about the Greeks and Romans and dying for a hoax. If memory serves there were multitudes of Greeks that went to war and died in the name of Zeus and other Greek gods. Many books were written about Greek gods and their interactions with human believers.

Same goes with interactions with humans by Hindu gods and we can't forget all the Egyptians who did the bidding's of their Egyptian gods. Ra was one powerful god and shed down light on all of his believers. There are hundreds of stone tablets written about the sun god Ra, So, in light of your example, he must have been real.

Homer wrote of Greek gods leading them to glory and mystical adventures as in the Iliad and the Odyssey. He wrote about them several hundred years before Christ supposedly walked the earth. Since the Greeks wrote about their god's and most Greeks believed in them, does that make them real and prove they existed?

History is defined by their gods and their interaction with their human believers. Does that mean they are all real and definitely existed?

People like Socrates tried to expose the reality about their gods as well as the political persecution that resulted from the non-belief in them. He was sentenced to death because he openly talked about things that were looked at as heresy when he spoke against their gods as well as their political structure that resulted from such beliefs. Persecution for ones beliefs are not exclusive to only those who do believe.

The Greek, Roman, Hindu, Buddhist, etc, etc, gods all existed, in the same exact place that all gods exist. In the believers mind. Those who believe the strongest claim to have personal conversation with their gods of ancient myth and will give up their lives due to possible circumstances in their lives to prove that belief. That still does not make them real outside of their own minds. Nor dose it make their love for them or their loving actions toward their fellow man less valuable. That love and kindness shown by those believers does not make their gods any more real then the bigoted cruel actions by those who claim to believe in the same exact god as the do-gooders.

Mother Teresa believed in the same Christian god as the grand wizard of the KKK. Which one of them had it right and which one of them could prove their god existence any more definite than the other? They both read the same bible. The bible speaks of both loving things and destruction of those who do not believe and are different. Which interpretation of their god is more realistic? Which one is proven to be "more real" in any other place but their own minds?

Dave

Satanus

ela

If I am not mistaken didn't almost all of the original 12 apostles suffer violent deaths due to their belief in and preaching about Jesus?

Paul's i would believe. The others' manner of death is tradition, extrabiblical tradition. In my book of catholic saints, there are many wonderful stories of communicating w animals, levitation, bilocation, hearing voices, healings, resurections, and things like these. Do you believe them?

SS

LittleToe

I believe you're being facetious. I'm not talking about gods here, I'm talking about people who died upholding the beliefs and ethics of an individual they claimed to have met.

The references to other cultures were to do with the fact that you happily accept characters that are reported about in those cultures, but not the guy from Palestine. Are you SURE Julius Caesar existed? What about Brutus?

Would it be any easier if there were only one Gospel, or would holes still be being picked in it, as well?

Is an individual or a belief system to be judged by the followers or the actual ethics proposed?
Further, why attempt to discredit such a high ethic (that's something that I've never understood about higher criticism).

did Jesus exist and does it matter?

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