Another School Shooting: The Gun Violence/Mental Illness Debate Continues

by jp1692 105 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Finkelstein

  Part of the problem is determining who can own guns and who shouldn't.
  

  I hardly think anyone would agree that if a known person who is suffering from lets say paranoid schizophrenia should be allowed to own a gun for they may do damage to themselves and others.

  It is impossible to control every person who is not mentally fit to own their own guns because people can change, once healthy people can turn into demented violent aggressors.
  

  Knowing and realizing that it the case, there should be at least restrictions to what kinds of guns the general public can own and evaluated to their possible destructive force if used in a public place.
  
• 

  kramer

  Here in Europe , we have a really effective way of stopping mass shootings, to the extent that they are incredibly rare. We generally don’t allow people to own guns, It really cuts down on mass shootings, even those annoying isolated incidents that kill up at 10,000 or so in stranger countries. Even when we do allow people to be armed they seem to handle it better and seem more keen to make cuckoo clocks, chocolate, money and go skiing than kill people , such as in Switzerland. Maybe that’s the answer for the US, don’t allow people to buy guns, or start a cuckoo clock industry. Strangely the government still don’t seem until to rise up against the people here, despite our lack of guns.
• 

  OrphanCrow

  Mentally ill people aren’t killers. Angry people are.

  In the wake of a string of horrific mass shootings by people who in many cases had emotional problems, it has become fashionable to blame mental illness for violent crimes. It has even been suggested that these crimes justify not only banning people with a history of mental illness from buying weapons but also arming those without such diagnoses so that they may protect themselves from the dangerous mentally ill. This fundamentally misrepresents where the danger lies.
  Violence is not a product of mental illness. Nor is violence generally the action of ordinary, stable individuals who suddenly “break” and commit crimes of passion. Violent crimes are committed by violent people, those who do not have the skills to manage their anger. Most homicides are committed by people with a history of violence. Murderers are rarely ordinary, law-abiding citizens, and they are also rarely mentally ill. Violence is a product of compromised anger management skills.

  ...

  ...

  Violent crimes committed by people with severe mental illnesses get a lot of attention, but such attacks are relatively rare. Paolo del Vecchio of the federal Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration has said, “Violence by those with mental illness is so small that even if you could somehow cure it all, 95 percent of violent crime would still exist.” A 2009 study by Seena Fazel found a slightly higher rate of violent crime in schizophrenics—but it was almost entirely accounted for by alcohol and drug abuse. Likewise, the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Study found that mentally ill people who did not have a substance abuse problem were no more violent than other people in their neighborhoods.
  With no clear explanation of the causes of violent crime from the mental health field, and with significant encouragement from the gun lobby, the public has begun to seize on the wrong explanation for tragic, violent events. They focus not on the IED-diagnosed patients but on those with other diagnoses, schizophrenia in particular, ignoring the fact that what the perpetrators have in common in every single one of these cases is a loss of control of their anger.
  The attribution of violent crime to people diagnosed with mental illness is increasing stigmatization of the mentally ill while virtually no effort is being made to address the much broader cultural problem of anger management. This broader problem encompasses not just mass murders but violence toward children and spouses, rape, road rage, assault, and violent robberies. We are a culture awash in anger.

  read full article at link
• 

  Finkelstein

  It isn't rocket science to make the evaluative conclusion that when you introduce a high volume of guns into the hands of the general population that there will be an increase of those guns used in acts of violence, hence the reason the US has such a high incidences of guns used in violent acts.

  Controls and restrictions work to limited effect but there has to be an acceptance that if you let guns designed for the purpose of killing other humans as in warring assault rifles, that those guns in the hands of the deranged criminals will be the guns of choice.

  The recent shooting in Florida is an example of that fact, there are others.
  
• 

  OrphanCrow

  finkle: ...those guns in the hands of the deranged criminals will be the guns of choice.
  The recent shooting in Florida is an example of that fact, there are others.

  And? What does that "fact" have to do with the topic of discussion?

  Guns are not the problem

  Mental illness is not the problem

  Anger is the problem
• 

  Finkelstein

  From a human psychological perspective guns can evoke thoughts of violent retribution.

  Would you agree with that statement ?
  

  As I mentioned before it would impossible to screen out every person who owns a gun to their mental state, even at the time they are attempting to purchase a gun.

  So that leaves what kind of resolve ?

  Therefore would it not make empathetic sense in caring about the safety of the greater population that assault rifles should be banned form public ownership in the endeavor of social responsibility.. ?
  
• 

  OrphanCrow

  From a human psychological perspective guns can evoke thoughts of violent retribution.
  Would you agree with that statement ?

  No

  As I mentioned before it would impossible to screen out every person who owns a gun to their mental state, even at the time they are attempting to purchase a gun.
  So that leaves what kind of resolve ?

  I think your resolve should be to read the entire article that I linked to in my previous post.

  Resolve that first and then we will talk
• 

  Finkelstein

  From a human psychological perspective guns can evoke thoughts of violent retribution.
  Would you agree with that statement ?

  Your answer ...... No

  So these recent school shootings had nothing to do with stirred up anger and hatred provoking instilled retribution by the attacker ?
  

  Well then we can see your being intellectually dishonest so your not worth discussing the topic bye.
  
• 

  freemindfade

  Here in Europe...

  There is always another way when you are determined to kill a lot of people
  

  • August 17, 2017, Barcelona, Spain — A van plowed into pedestrians in the Las Ramblas tourist area, killing 13 and injuring more than 100, according to officials.
  • June 3, 2017, London, England — A van was driven into crowds on London Bridge, after which the attackers left their vehicle and stabbed several people in the area. Seven people were killed and nearly 50 injured.
  • April 7, 2017, Stockholm, Sweden — A truck was driven into a Swedish department store, killing four people.
  • March 22, 2017, London, England — An SUV drove into crowds in London near Parliament. Four people were killed by the vehicle, and one police officer was stabbed after the driver left the vehicle.
  • December 19, 2016, Berlin, Germany - A truck was driven into crowds at a Christmas market, killing 12 people.
  • July 14, 2016, Nice, France — A truck was driven into crowds on Bastille Day, killing 86 people.

  Most mass shooters had a reason beforehand they should have been locked up, and that the very least flagged in the database, why weren't they? Why don't we start there

  Most gun deaths in America are NOT "assault weapons"

  People scream about gun show loopholes, ok, that is fine, but people like Stephen Paddock and this recent nutjob didn't need loopholes.

  Most gun deaths are also suicides

  Most of Americas gun violence is by people with illegal guns

  Hotspots in America for gun violence already have extremely draconian gun laws in place that do nothing.

  So crying ban guns is a prescription some come up with. The reality of that happening is not likely so why beat that to death? You are NOT going to repeal the 2nd amendment. You want to ban so called "assault" weapons, ok... Columbine was handguns and shotguns... virginia tech shooter used two handguns and killed 33 people! one of the guns was a 22!!

  Let's be honest about this problem. Mass shooting with an AR15 seems like a symptom to me, not the problem, and the goal should be to remove the problem. Then logically look at the other symptoms. This whole thing could have been prevented if the system in place did its job.
• 

  OrphanCrow

  Finkle: So these recent school shootings had nothing to do with stirred up anger and hatred provoking instilled retribution by the attacker ?

  That isn't what you had asked

  *ps - do you even know what "intellectually dishonest" means?