I love you - do I?

donkey

Rather than participate in the thread asking if people really loved Jehovah I have a different question to ask but it requires a contextual setting prior to being considered.

Many posters here at one time loved Jehovah and we know our concept of Jehovah was that which was created as a result of WT teachings - only to find out that the teachings had no factual basis. We can also observe people all over the world who worship idols or nature or other gods such as Allah or Vishnu etc and we know that these people are in love with a god who is not true - if their beliefs about who God is are untrue then they are logically in love with a concept as opposed to a real person or spirit being. Now I understand that everyone who still holds some notion of a belief in God will hold that their version is right - and most will love God as they perceive him/her/it to be - but would you admit that you love the concept of God as you perceive God to be or as you want God to be rather than love God for who he is?

Another way to prove that people love the concept or idea of God is to look at the fact that the very belief that God exists in the first place is because people have faith (a belief rather than evidence) that God exists and they further have faith that if God does exists then God is who they believe God to be (more faith). The fact that faith is required is proof that people can only love the concept rather than the being they claim to be God.

If we take it a step further and admit we loved the concept of Jehovah or the concept of XXXX God then we are faced with the question - can you love a concept? Is this really love? I think there is no such thing as genuine love. Do you love a person or do you love what you perceive the person to be? Do you love the person or do you love how they make YOU feel? I am not advocating the abandonment of love as I would rather live in a world filled with love than with most other alternatives. - I am merely looking at the human emotion as being atomic unto the individual who shows the emotion rather than the emotion flowing from one person to another.

Lots of love, (sorry couldn't resist)
Donkey

Aztec

I am merely looking at the human emotion as being atomic unto the individual who shows the emotion rather than the emotion flowing from one person to another.

Huh, that is an interesting idea. I'm sorry that I don't have much to add but, what can you expect from someone who is up at 4 am?

~Az

Max Divergent

I'm not sure I see a real link or dependecy between the concepts of God and Love, and find it hard to think that an emotion can be transfered or flow between individuals, as opposed to emotion being somthing developed within as a reslt of nature/nurture/somthing else/whatever... I can't MAKE you feel anything, nor can you MAKE me feel anything ...

You might be loving toward me, but I'll choose whether to be loving back or not... given donkey's aren't to my preference, chances are I'd run like hell whatever sort of advance you made ... but there are others here who might react differently... :-)

Cheers, Max

donkey

Max - so if you loved God but later found out that the God you loved did not exist then was that love? Can you love something that isn't true? Can you love a concept or is it just an empty obsession?

Satanus

Yes, people can be in love w a concept. In the case of the concept being a god; jehovah, allah, zeus, then it is idolatry. It is based on what was programed into them, rather than evidence which they experienced for themselves. Some people arguably do have an experience, yet their converting of it into concepts and words distorts and imbellishes it, adding falsehood to it - a false god.

Not sure about love between people.

SS

Max Divergent

Oh, I would have thought Love is somthing that can exist within oneself without he object of that love being a physical reality, or another entity capable of feeling love in return.

Just because the god turns out to be unreal dosn't cancel out the devotion or whatever a person felt and expressed and acted out while they beleived in that God.

Maybe it was a Love of less practical usefulness that a love of a real entity (of a lover, or your parents or whoever), but it was real while it lasted, I wouldn't devalue that experience in anyway.

Just becuse the object of our affection/devotion proves to be not to our expectation dosn't mean we didn't honour them with our love and experience that as a real thing - I think it'd be a waste of a precious thing if we wrote off good things as a result of disapointment.

There aren't many good things in the world, why write off the goodness in what we experience, even if all our hopes aren't fulfilled?

I say, enjoy the love of god that was experienced, place it high, and move on in seeking out more goodness to love freely, without inhabition, without regret and without second-guessing what was given freely and with joy for a benifit that might have now passed.

Robdar

Now I understand that everyone who still holds some notion of a belief in God will hold that their version is right - and most will love God as they perceive him/her/it to be - but would you admit that you love the concept of God as you perceive God to be or as you want God to be rather than love God for who he is?

No, I can't admit that. I know that I have no way of truly knowing who God is and am comfortable with that. I am also comfortable in my knowledge that God may not exist. What I love is the journey, the quest. I try not to put any preconceived notions on what God is or isn't. Why ruin the surprise? If there isn't a God, it doesn't really affect me because I would still find the quest to be enough. If I try to live by the positive characteristics that we ascribe to God, I am the one who will gain. If God doesn't exist, I have still gained what I am seeking.

Another way to prove that people love the concept or idea of God is to look at the fact that the very belief that God exists in the first place is because people have faith (a belief rather than evidence) that God exists and they further have faith that if God does exists then God is who they believe God to be (more faith). The fact that faith is required is proof that people can only love the concept rather than the being they claim to be God.

Faith has always been my weak point. Believe it or not, even though I choose to believe in God, I am a logical being. I like proof. However, I am not one to quickly dismiss any evidence, no matter which side presents it. I like thinking. I like taking a thought or concept and running with it as far as I can. I am not afraid of truth. If there is no God, so be it. If there is, so be it.

If we take it a step further and admit we loved the concept of Jehovah or the concept of XXXX God then we are faced with the question - can you love a concept? Is this really love?

Yes, I can love a concept if it helps me to love myself and others better.

I think there is no such thing as genuine love. Do you love a person or do you love what you perceive the person to be? Do you love the person or do you love how they make YOU feel?

I usually love who I love. It is nice if they make me feel good in return but it isn't necessary. What matters to me is the love inside me. Now, romantic love is a different thing. If I love somebody romantically, I do hope that they love me back. If not, I try to express myself in ways other than romantic ones.

I am not advocating the abandonment of love as I would rather live in a world filled with love than with most other alternatives. - I am merely looking at the human emotion as being atomic unto the individual who shows the emotion rather than the emotion flowing from one person to another.

I do agree that love starts within. If it happens to flow back your way, it's good.

Narkissos

Interestingly, the author of the famous motto "God is love" seems to feel somewhat uneasy with the idea of "loving God" (1John 4:7ff):

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us. (...) God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

Narkissos

Curiously the end of my previous post has disappeared:

I feel a sort of atheistic thrill in this Johannine theology, as well as in most deepest NT theology. It implies an idea of divinity (perhaps only to be understood metaphorically) which is much more than "someone", or "God" according to any common definition of this term.

About love, I really wonder. I think we are definitely related to one another: there is no subjectivity without intersubjectivity. However, what we usually call "love" is just one side of this relationship. Hate may be another one. Christianity promotes the expression of love and represses the expression of hate, which I do not find very healthy because it leads to much hypocrisy. If "love" could be understood as meaning the whole relationship, the future in the command "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" might be taken as a kind of prophetic, or wisdom statement: want it or not, you are related to every other person and this implies some "love" which may become apparent someday. There may be much complicity, understanding and even sympathy between functional enemies.

Just thinking.

minimus

"I think there is no such thing as genuine love"......Donkey, that is sad.

I love you - do I?

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