P.S. Avishai: You saidI know my brother pretty damn well, thank you very much. He says he understands. Now, if someone were to call my bro "You F*#$^&in retard, I'd be in their face instantly. It's intent, dammit! BTW, I've worked in the DD community for the last 13 years as an advocate, at group homes, etc. My brother is also helpful in the community. Would you like me to get his opinion and put it on here personally for you? I frankly am kind of offended by your comment. Have you had to help raise an autistic kid w/ a widowed mother? I KNOW MY BROTHER, YOU DON"T!! GET IT?Politically correct terms bore me to tears, I don't care if someone says my bro is a retard as long as there is no harmful intent. Old people do that sometimes. Oh, sorry, I mean the "Chronologically challenged."That?s nice that YOU don?t care. I wonder how he really feels about it?
WHY are there no mentally challenged new JW's...?
by Rabbit 39 Replies latest jw friends
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avishai
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Rabbit
Avishai says:
Have you had to help raise an autistic kid w/ a widowed mother? I KNOW MY BROTHER, YOU DON"T!! GET IT?
Rabbit says: Aw... what's up Doc?
And good for you...
And a technical question: When I want to quote several people in one post, after I paste the first one, then go back to copy others...when I return to reply -- the mail is blank. What gives?
Also, the original post was on the 16/17th when I try to find it, it's not in the right place among the latest ones. The last few days I had to go to 'Members' go to my name, my 'Posts'. The Post was # 2145...?
Haylp...
~ Lee ~
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avishai
Rabbit says: Aw... what's up Doc?
Shhh....be vewwwy vewwwy quiet. I'm hunting ovewwwy sensitive PC peopows!!!
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forgetmenot
I'm just trying to emphasis respect. If you respect somebody, you will call them what they want to be called.
And, yes I do know that the terms keep changing and that everyone has a difference of opinion. That's obvious. But when I know what somebody wants to be called (and if I respect them), then that's what they get called. And I am by no means perfect in my language, that's impossible.
However, it is not offensive (I hope not at least) to call somebody a person. Therefore, since most people must distinguish them from "normal" people, people with disabilities seem to be the least harsh, since it focuses on people. However, to each his own. I've known people who like to be called crippled for their own reasons. I also know that medically, it is correct to refer to people using medical terms (DD, dwarfism, etc.). But it's also nice if "person" is added in front of those.
As far as avishai : I just wanted to point out that "I" comes up a lot. Of course, I am guilty for this and maybe that's why I picked up on it. However, you also say,
He says he understands.
I'm sure that he does (I mean that honestly and sincerely)...but I'd also guess that he doesn't like being called retard? Aye? Just a guess. I don't mean to offend you.
So, I look forward to more topics that you discuss on. TTFN...I will not return for a while because of school stuff...yeish. - forgetmenot
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Mulan
Great point Lee. I have a woman friend who is black and the only other words she uses to describe herself is "a woman of color". Most of the time she calls herself a black woman, for the same reason you stated, she isn't African.
Good point about other countries too. In Amsterdam, you wouldn't call a Dutch black woman, an African American.
We have a nephew with Down's syndrome. If an elderly person calls him a Mongoloid, nobody is offended or jumps to correct them. We all know what they mean.
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Doubtfully Yours
In the few congregations I've been in, believe me, there are plenty of mentally challenged, retarded, whatever you want to call them. In short, plenty of nuts in there; why bring in more?!
Also, lots of depressed and mentally unstable people too. You know, that's really one of the big turn offs for me.
Call me what you will. I can be in a group where there's 1 or 2 crazy ones, but when it seems that the loonies outnumber the normal individuals, now there's a problem there and I won't stick around to see it solved.
DY
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shamus
The only people who call them "Retards" are kids. Any human being that is old enough to call them "Retards" should be shot in the hip with a shotgun.
I kicked one travel agent out of our hotel because she asked if I was a retard. She was there to check the hotel out and write up a report on it. Unfortunately, she showed up drunk, with her "lover" and had no credit card. She just wanted to walk into the hotel with nothing... something that nobody could do. She didn't know who she was talking to, and I escorted her off property and told her that she was not welcome back.
I take serious offence to anyone using the name "Retard". I don't usually wish bad things on people, but I wish that they would develop Fetal Alcohol Syndrome for a few years and have to live with not being able to do anything because your mother drank. It is incredibly frustrating and the poor souls that have this disease are a lot smarter than a lot of people that I know post here.
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avishai
The only people who call them "Retards" are kids.
Shamus, chill my brotha!! What I meant, well I'll give the example. I was over at a girlfriends house, & her great grandparents said, about Leo Dicaprio in "what's eating gilbert grape" "He did such a great job playing that retard boy". No offense was taken, because the intent was'nt there.
There are many on this board who use the word as a slur, saying "Your so retarded", "That's so retarded" ,You're such a retard." These people I have torn a new one, as I see no difference from using the word retard or retarded as a NEGATIVE, than calling someone a nigger or a faggot. Get it?
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mrs rocky2
I am going to hold to my opinion of respect being underdone. Disagreements about terminology, politically correct or not, start wars, which is not my intention.
Focusing on getting to know people ("the person") is more important than trying to figure out pc terminology. I think the original question posed by Rabbit was to pose a thought about how the WT community does not really make an effort to know the person, especially those who are mentally challenged. Just as Rabbit mentioned, there are no support groups or assistance for those who are mentally challenged or their families (no formal weekend respite programs, etc.) From experience I know that persons with lower than societal average IQs are avoided by mainstream JWs.
One of the last straws for me, and one of the reasons why I chose to depart from JW company, was about this problem. I was studying with a woman who was raised as what society labeled mentally retarded. She did not have a medical diagnosis to support this label, her parents just raised her as if she were mentally retarded.. She was intelligent enough to pass the certified nursing assistance course at the local hospital. But she lacked social skills. It took us 3 years, and 3 separate pioneers, to finish the Live Forever book (don't know why the Service Overseer didn't make us stop at 1 year). She eventually was baptized. The year after she was baptized the usual announcement was made before District Convention that anyone needing assistance for convention accommodations and travel were to talk to their respective congregation book study conductor. No one would help this woman make arrangements, not one elder. The family that ended up taking her to convention (300 miles from our congregation) was travelling in a pickup with small camper (that would be us - mom, dad, and 2 adolescent kids). The family that brought her home (because we didn't return home directly after convention) was another family travelling in a pickup with small camper (mom, dad, and 4 kids). At the same time, a younger, beautiful, financially well-off newly baptized woman with 2 small children had no problem finding rides and accommodations. People were falling all over themselves trying to help her. My own mother-in-law told me she had a problem with helping the mentally & socially challenged woman, her lack of social skills disgusted her. This woman is one of the most interesting and big hearted people I have ever met in my life...and I am sorry that I helped get her involved with WT.
Terminology prevents us from getting to know the person. We should not be afraid to get to know people who are different from ourselves. Which is why, I always return to the bottom line being respect. Having spent the last 13+ years working with behavioral health, both the mentally ill and developmentally disabled, has helped me have more respect for people in general, but especially for people who have more limitations on their minds, emotions, or bodies than the next person. I know I have limitations on my mind, emotions, and body...I am aware of my imperfections, painfully so, and try desparately not to offend others but know that I fall way short.
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blondie
w76 9/15 pp. 575-576 Questions from Readers
? First Corinthians 7:14 states that children of a believing parent "are holy." Is baptism involved in such a child?s ?holiness? in God?s sight? What if the child is retarded?
The apostle Paul is here discussing problems in a divided family. He encouraged the believing mate not to leave the unbeliever and, as a strong reason for keeping the marriage intact, said this: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy." (1 Cor. 7:14) This shows that God views such children according to the principle of family merit. By family merit is meant the holiness that God credits, or imputes, to minor children who are obedient, to the extent that the child is unaccountable. This comes about due to the valuable record of holiness and good deeds that "parents in union with the Lord" have in God?s sight. (Eph. 6:1) This family merit applies even when only one of the parents is a believer, as Paul?s above-quoted words indicate.
What, then, of baptism? A young child who is faithfully taught God?s Word will no doubt progress in knowledge and understanding, and in time reach the point where God?s spirit motivates him to make his own dedication to Jehovah and to request baptism. (1 Pet. 3:21) To be prepared for baptism, he must appreciate his need to repent, be converted and come into a proper relationship with God. (Acts 3:19; 8:34-36) After baptism, he would no longer be under family merit, but would be viewed as "holy" on his own account, being responsible before God to pursue a life of dedication.?1 Pet. 1:14-16; Col. 1:21-23.
Should parents of retarded children feel that baptism is in all cases a requirement for children to be viewed by God as worthy of his protection in times of judgment, as in the foretold "great tribulation"? The degree of retardation is clearly a determining factor, since some of such children remain with the mentality of a four- or five-year-old even when fully grown. The child may be able to grasp certain basic teachings of God?s Word and repeat these when asked. He (or she) may be obedient to the parents and abstain from doing certain things that have been pointed out as wrong and contrary to God?s will. But is the child able to make personal decisions, able to decide from his own mind and heart (not that of the parents) the course in life he wishes to take? Is he capable of comprehending and seeking a personal relationship with God, one that is not dependent upon his parents? Is he able to stand before a judicial body, accountable for any wrongdoing he may commit? If not, then such child is evidently not in position to be baptized but would continue under family merit in God?s eyes, counted by him as "holy" in that sense.
Hence, the matter should not be viewed emotionally but on the basis of Scriptural teachings. If the retardation is not great and the child is indeed capable of becoming a disciple of God?s Son, serving God with his own ?heart, soul, mind and strength,? then he could be aided to reach the point of baptism. (Mark 12:30) He then should be able to "carry his own load" of spiritual responsibility. (Gal. 6:5) The parents could seek the counsel of the elders if they are in doubt.
How faith-strengthening and comforting to know that young children, as well as mentally retarded older ones, may be regarded as "holy" due to family merit!