was reading a thread about free will on here and was turning it around in my mind and so decided to ask you the above question to sort out my own feelings on the subject.
is exhortation coercive?
by Ruby456 20 Replies latest members adult
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Ruby456
exhortation is top down so I guess it is coercive from this pov
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pbrow
exhortation - an address or communication emphatically urging someone to do something.
It certainly can be. The danger with groups like the jdubs is for born ins. Kids that are raised in a bubble where they do not get opposing views. They are denied the ability to even realize that there are opposing views.
It is difficult for me to sympathize with adults who have chosen to join this group and then change their mind, complain about how the organization is at fault for "making" or "forcing" them to shun people. They chose this and could leave as soon as they realized this policy.
You can call it coersive or manipulating but no one forces an adult to join. If this conversation does anything I hope that it compells people with children to get the fuck out of this group. If you are awake and have children in this church you cannot allow your children to be raised in it without showing them that dissent and open discussion is not only possible and encouraged, but it is a basic human right to do so.
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Phizzy
It is coercive in what it attempts to do, but of course, if the exhortation is valid, and for our own good, it may not be a bad thing, persuading us to take a right course despite our attitude or desires.
Of course, if we are being exhorted to do something that perhaps may not actually be harmful to us, but is only of benefit to the other person, we should reject it.
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Fairlane
Im sure no one joined the jws to specifically shun people, i would guess most if not all had any instruction re shunning or for that matter disfellowshiping policy. It must be understood that 'carrot on a stick' is mostly , living forever , resurrection of loved ones and believing that the jws interpretation of scripture is an answer to the negatives in their lives. Yes at that point there is free will but subsequently that free will is eroded very subtly and deliberately by means including exhortation and coercion designed to keep the adherents close to the mother ship. The jws use of scripture is the tool by means of cultivating fear in the individual that to use their free will to search for answers or understanding is tantamount to betraying the organization therefore jehovah. This is where their free will is eroded to the point of non existence, its basically a journey which produces a brainwashing from which point its extremely difficult to break from and regain ones free will.
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pbrow
Fairlane... I disagree with the idea that your free will is eroded.
I am strictly talking about the US here but any adult at any time can stand up and walk out of any morman, jw, catholic or muslim church they want. The leaders of that church cannot stop them. Your free will is intact. Your decision to stay because you do not want to suffer the consequences of other peoples choices is in fact, your decision.
Jdub policies followed by people do harm other people. I am not disputing that. We all accept different levels of shit from other people. Free will is the ability to define the level of shit that you are going to accept from another person.
GTFO of this church.
pbrow
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Giordano
The Definition of Coercion : is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force. In the case of the WT and JW's you are forced to shun a person on pain of being shunned yourself.
That alone makes any religion that shuns and demands that their followers participate in shunning....... a criminal entity.
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sparrowdown
Free will is an illusion for JWs, but there are more than just JW "sheeple" and more subtle forms "influence."
Why did I buy that make of car or brand of vitamins was I influenced by the ad industry or did I do my own thorough research? Boy what a minefield of a subject. Anyway....
JWs still have the ability to walk away even those that were born in become legally responsible for themselves and their own decisions once they turn 18.
I think, just my opinion, it's not about a person's ability to think or choose it's about the belief that you are free to choose.
Cults present false choice that cause people to believe that they made the choice, but the truth is they were only given one cleverly presented choice wrapped up in WT excess verbiage - " do as the GB says or die at armageddon."
JWs are free to access (via the internet or the local library) all the information they need to make choices they just don't believe they are.
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Ruby456
thanks for this definition pbrow.
exhortation - an address or communication emphatically urging someone to do something.
and phizzy
It is coercive in what it attempts to do, but of course, if the exhortation is valid, and for our own good, it may not be a bad thing, persuading us to take a right course despite our attitude or desires.
I guess in our society nowadays we usually associate the above definitions with politicians and here at least we know that we can take it or leave it. but those of us who have a religious background like jws (all of us I guess) the exhortation must be obeyed as it is usually to do with morals and lifestyle and there are consequences if we do not obey.
Of course, if we are being exhorted to do something that perhaps may not actually be harmful to us, but is only of benefit to the other person, we should reject it.
old style school teaching was like this too.
I'm wondering if the culture shock we experience when we leave is to do with finding that there is a lack of exhortation as our entire moral imagination was shaped by this means. we also feel angry and betrayed because the world outside is more like how we are taught at school in secular society. -
Ruby456
giordano
The Definition of Coercion : is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force. In the case of the WT and JW's you are forced to shun a person on pain of being shunned yourself.
That alone makes any religion that shuns and demands that their followers participate in shunning....... a criminal entity.a criminal entity or an very old fashioned way of teaching morals and lifestyle? (there used to be a huge haranguing element to exhortation too and there still is in some fire and brimstone religions).
giordano the problem with saying that it is a criminal entity is that we don't know how much of the shunning is in response to the anger and hatred that comes from those who have left when they reach this point of culture shock and change. Here the fact that shunning is enforced by the society may be seen as a blessing and a curse because the shunners are taught not to respond in kind but to ignore and to take steps to avoid. So they are told what the behaviour needs to be to keep the peace and this is rolled out across the entire religion.
call it club membership, to borrow a line from Simon, but that is how it is. the disfellowshipped individual is no longer a member and therefore no longer has access to social and religious participation. of course when applied in the home this is awful but it is still possible to keep the peace.