Jesus gave no signs (page 2)

xjw_b12

I'd consider this a sign ...... or maybe an omen !

alt

Hey, I said I would not try to defend the idea. It is however argued that joe underwent a similar redaction process as the NT with different agendas and layers.

But moving on...I found an interesting article this morning that belong in your James thread. Check it out, its titled, "Brother James- Radical Jew Sanitized into Pious Christion Martyr" by Kenneth Humphreys. Sorry I can't do links with my webtv. Iv'e seen parts of the argument before but this piece pulls it together nicely. Ignore the hosting site's name if you want.

peacefulpete

Euph..the Gospels were written after Paul's authentic letters. They therefore never served as a background for the charismata of the Pauline congegations. Rather the mystery cults offered the inspiration and likely drugs enhanced the experiences. Speaking in tongues and gifts of visions were part of varioius contemporary mystery cults.

peacefulpete

Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 140, No. 558 (April 83):134

Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth
H. Wayne House

Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued.

Scholars have differed in their view of the extent of the mystery religions' influence on Christianity. Clemen argued that Christianity acquired forms, conceptions, and rites from the mystery sects.4 Likewise Heussi said that undoubtedly the language and piety of the mysteries influenced the church.5

A Look at the Origin and Philosophies of the Mysteries
Roman-Hellenism and Religious Syncretism
When the church began, the state religions in the Roman Empire, though given proper outward honor, had somehow lost their grip on individuals. One reason for this may be that since the philosophers had found the gods wanting, the fear of the gods had been removed. Furthermore, in view of Roman domination over different countries and cities, the impotency of the gods became pronounced, and this realization was sensed by individuals. If the god could not help the city, how could he meet an individual's needs?

The constant flux seen in the pantheon of Greek and Roman gods offered individuals little hope. People turned from thought to experience as the basis of religion, from rational content to emotional yearning.12 Their contact with the Near East, especially from the time of Alexander, brought in new ideas which found favor with the peoples of the western Mediterranean world. The mystery religions swiftly spread in a world in which travel was relatively easy and in which soldiers, who believed in these mystery religions, moved from place to place. The people were seeking a change of some sort, which the dynamic of the religious syncretism provided.

Why were the priests able to attract the men and women who were dissatisfied with their lives and anxious for a better hope? What could they offer to the votaries? The best answer maybe given in a single word. The great need and longing of the time was for salvation, soteria. Men and women were eager for such a communion with the divine, such a realization of the interest of God in their affairs, as might serve to support them in the trials of life, and guarantee to them a friendly reception in the world beyond the grave?. The communion with some saving deity, then, was the (goal ] of all practice of the mysteries.13

Three sources are the most probable candidates for the ecstatic phenomenon seen at Corinth: the Cybele-Attis cult, the Dionysian cult (both mystery religions), and the religion of Apollo.
The worship of Cybele-Attis was accepted by the Greeks in approximately 200 B.C. The rites of this cult were extreme in nature. Priests who were stirred by clashing cymbals, loud drums, and screeching flutes, would at times dance in a frenzy of excitement, gashing their bodies. Even new devotees would emasculate themselves in worship of the goddess.
The Cybele-Attis mystery religion existed in the first century A.D. Emperor Claudius (A.D. 41?54) introduced a festival of Cybele-Attis which focused on the death and resurrection of Attis.14 Montanus, a second-century Christian heretic, known for his ecstatic excesses, was a priest of Cybele at one time.15

Dionysus, the god of wine, became one of the most popular gods of the Greek pantheon.
Following the torches as they dipped and swayed in the darkness, they climbed mountain paths with head thrown back and eyes glazed, dancing to the beat of the drum which stirred their blood?. In the state of ekstasis or enqousiasmos, they abandoned themselves, dancing wildly?. and calling "Euoi!" At that moment of intense rapture they became identified with the god himself?. They became filled with his spirit and acquired divine powers.17

The ecstatic tongues-speaking of the oracle and the subsequent interpretation by the priest at Delphi are widely known. The cult of Apollo was widespread in Achaia, but especially around the temple of Delphi across from Corinth. This religion easily could have provided the kind of impetus for spiritual experience found in the Corinthian church.
Greece had long experience of the utterances of the Pythian prophetess at Delphi and the enthusiastic invocations of the votaries of Dionysus.

Hence Paul insists that it is not the phenomenon of "tongues" or prophesying in itself that gives evidence of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit, but the actual content of the utterances.25

With the ecstacisrn of Dionysianism and the emphasis on tongues-speaking and oracles in the religion of Apollo, it is not surprising that some of the Corinthians carried these pagan ideas in the church at Corinth, especially the practice of glossolalia for which both of these religions are known (though the Dionysian cult did not include interpretation of the glossolalia as did that of Apollo) .

The major teaching in the mystery religions was rebirth and immortality of the initiates. Their rites were baptism, dedication, and the sacramental meals. These are discussed in several sources.28

"The mystery-cults of the empire were designed to induce both higher and lower forms of ecstatic feeling."29 The expression of the ecstatic state took various forms, such as gashing one's flesh, dancing nude in a frenzy, and speaking in ecstatic utterance. The latter was the means whereby the devotees sought to have communion with the saving deity. Here the significance of the term "glossolalia," or "speaking in tongues," comes to the fore. "The gift of tongues and of their interpretation was not peculiar to the Christian Church, but was a repetition in it of a phrase common in ancient religions. The very phrase glossais lalein, 'to speak with tongues,' was not invented by the New Testament writers, but borrowed from ordinary speech."30

Similar Terminology with the Mysteries

Instruments in worship. Paul wrote that the ability to "speak with the tongues of men and of angels" without love is no better than his being "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1). This may be an allusion to the use of these instruments in the mystery cults. These instruments were used to produce the ecstatic condition that provided the emotional intoxication needed to experience the sacramental celebration.32 This is especially true in Dionysianism.33
The spiritual one (pneumatikos). Paul contrasted the pneumatikos, one who has the Spirit, with the psuchukos, the one devoid of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:10?3:4 {1 Cor 3:4}). The pneumatic character of worship in the mystery religions was always connected with states of ecstasy, and miraculous powers.

Mystery

In heathen religions this word referred to the hidden secrets of the gods which only the initiated could know. Those initiated into such mysteries claimed to have contact with the spirit world through emotional excitement, revelations, the working of miracles and the speaking of unknown words revealed by the spirits.

Possibly Paul spoke of these mysteries when he wrote that "one who speaks in a tongue?speaks mysteries" (1 Cor 14:2). If this is not an allusion to mystery terminology, it is certainly not a commendation from the apostle.

The Daemon (daimonion).

The desire or at least reverence for the daimonion may be seen in the Corinthian church. In their pagan past the spirit would enable them to come into contact with the supernatural and to experience a oneness with the god in the state of ecstasy. These same attitudes existed among believers at Corinth. They had difficulty in accepting the fact that an idol (behind whom was a daimonion) was nothing and that meat sacrificed to an idol was just meat (1 Cor 8:1?7). They were zealous for spirits (1 Cor 14:12). Some have said that pneuma here is synonymous with "spiritual gifts," but this is an unlikely use of pneuma. Also 1 Corinthians 12:1?3 demonstrates that they were not distinguishing the difference between speaking by the Spirit of God and speaking by means of the daimonion in their previous pagan worship, by whom they were led to false worship.

Ecstasy.

Ecstasy was common in all mystery religions. The reason for this common experience is well stated by Nilsson:
Not every man can be a miracle-worker and a seer, but most are susceptible to ecstasy, especially as members of a great crowd, which draws the individual along with it and generates in him the sense of being filled with a higher, divine power. This is the literal meaning of the Greek word "enthusiasm," the state in which "god is in man." The rising tide of religious feeling seeks to surmount the barrier which separates man from god, it strives to enter into the divine, and it finds ultimate satisfaction only in that quenching of the consciousness in enthusiasm which is the goal of all mysticism.37

Glossolalia in the Cult and in the Church
Speaking in tongues was not unique to the Christian faith. This phenomenon existed in various religions. "There also the pneumatikos, by whatever name he might be called, was a familiar figure. As possessed by the god, or partaking of the Divine pneuma or nous, he too burst forth into mysterious ejaculations and rapt utterances of the kind described in the New Testament as glossai lalein."38

Notes
1 For example, Edwin Hatch, The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usages upon the Christian Church [London: Williams & Norgate, 1890); Richard Reitzenstein, Hellenistic Mystery Religions: Their Basic Ideas and Significance (Pittsburgh: Pickwick Press, 1978). For a discussion on proper methodology in studying the mystery religions see Bruce Metzger, "Methodology in the Study of the Mystery Religions and Early Christianity," in Historical and Literary Studies, Pagan, Jewish, and Christian, vol. 8, New Testament Tools and Studies (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1968). pp. 1?24. Bruce Metzger, A Classified Bibliography of the Graeco-Roman Mystery Religions 1924?1973 (forthcoming) will be an important tool for mystery religion research.
2 Walter Schmithals. Gnosticism in Corinth, trans. John E. Steely (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1971), pp. 141?301. That there are elements of Gnosticism at Corinth is certain, but this is due not to accepting a system of beliefs but to the intermixing of ideas in the Hellenistic Age. All the developed systems of thought in the first-century Mediterranean world are the children of one mother?Hellenistic syncretism. Yamauchi discusses Gnosticism versus incipient Gnosticism in the first century A.D. (Edwin M. Yamauchi, Pre-Christian Gnosticism [Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1973]). The weakness of Yamauchi's work is the lack of interaction with primary Gnostic sources.
3 Bruce says, "It would be anachronistic to call these [enthusiasts at Corinth] 'men of the Spirit' Gnostics: that is a term best reserved for adherents of the various schools of Gnosticism which flourished in the second century A.D. (F. F. Bruce, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free [Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1977], p. 261).
4 Carl Clemen, Religions of the World, trans. A. K. Dallas (London: George G. Harrap & Co., 1931). p. 342; cf. Carl Clemen, Der Einfluss der Mysterienreligionen auf das aelteste Christentum (Gieszen: Verlag von Alfred Töpelmann, 1913), p. 86.
5 Karl Heussi, Kompendium der Kirchengeschichte (Tübingen:Verlag von J. C. B. Mohr, 1957), p. 75.
6 P. D. Pahl, "The Mystery Religions," Australian Theological Review 20 (June 1949): 20.
7 A. S. Geden, Mithraism (London: Macmillan & Co., 1925), p. 4; cf. also for this view Kenneth Scott Latourette, A History of Christianity (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1953), p. 259.
8 Albert Schweitzer, Paul and His Interpreters, trans. G. W. Montgomery (New York: Macmillan Co., 1950), p. 189.
9 New Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "Mystery Religions. Greco-Oriental," by Karl Pruemm, pp. 163?64.
10 Bruce Metzger, "Methodology in the Study of the Mystery Religions and Early Christianity," Historical and Literary Studies, Pagan, Jewish, and Christian (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1968). p. 11.
11 Frederick C. Grant, "Greek Religion in the Hellenistic-Roman Age," Anglican Theological Review 33 (1951): 26.
12 S. A. Cook, F. E. Adcock, and M. P. Charlesworth. The Augustan Empire: 44 B.C.-A.D. 70, vol. 10. The Cambridge Ancient History (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1963), p. 504.
13 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, s.v. "Mysteries,"by P. Gardner, 9:81.
14 H. J. Rose, Religion in Greece and Rome (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1959), p. 278.
15 Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1970), p. 56.
16 George Frazer, The Golden Bough (New York: Macmillan Co., 1963), p. 450.
17 Peter Hoyle, Delphi (London: Cassel & Co., 1967), p. 76.
18 Martin P. Nilsson, "The Baachic Mysteries of the Roman Age," Harvard Theological Review 46 (October 1953): 175?85.
19 Cleon L. Rogers, "The Dionysian Background of Ephesians 5:18," Bibliotheca Sacra 136 (July?September 1979): 249?57.
20 Oscar Broneer, "Paul and the Pagan Cults at Isthmia," Harvard Theological Review 44 (1971): 182.
21 New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 161.
22 Hoyle, Delphi, p. 73.
23 Oscar Broneer, "Corinth,"The Biblical Archaeologist l4(1951): 84.
24 Apollo was worshiped as the Pythian god at the shrine of Delphi (known also as Pytho). He was especially associated with oracles (F. F. Bruce, Commentary on the Book of Acts [Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1954]. p. 332).
25 Bruce, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, p. 260.
26 Edith Hamilton, The Greek Way (New York: Time, 1930), p. 275.
27 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, 9:77.
28 In addition to the sources given in this article see: Samuel Dill, Roman Society: From Nero to Marcus Aurelius (New York: World Publishing Co., 1956); New Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "Mystery Religions, Greco-Oriental," by Karl Pruemm pp. 153?64; also the thorough bibliography in Sourcebook of Texts for the Comparative Study of the Gospels, ed. David L. Dungan and David R. Cartlidge, 3d ed. (Missoula, MT: Scholars Press, 1973).
29 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, s.v. "Ecstasy," by W. R. Inge, 5:158.
30 Encyclopedia Britannica (1911), s.v, "Gift of Tongues," by Fredrick C. Conybeare, 27:10.
31 H. A. A. Kennedy, St. Paul and the Mystery Religions (London: Hodder & Stoughton, n.d.), pp. 280?81.
32 Eduard Lohse, The New Testament Environment, trans. John E. Steely (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1976), p. 240.
33 "They represent them, one and all, as a kind of inspired people and as subject to Bacchic [Dyonysian] frenzy, and, in the guise of minister, as inspiring terror at the celebration of the sacred rites by means of wardances accompanied by uproar and noise and cymbals and drums and also by flute and outcry?." This was stated by Strabo. (Richard Kroeger and Catherine Kroeger, "Pandemonium and Silence at Corinth," The Reformed Joumal 28 [June 1978]: 7).
34 Alexander Rattray Hay, What Is Wrong in the Church? vol. 2, Counterfeit Speaking in Tongues (Audubon, NJ: New Testament Missionary Union. n,d.), p. 26.
35 Cited from Kroeger and Kroeger, "Pandemonium and Silence," p, 7.
36 Ibid., pp. 9?10.
37 Martin P. Nilsson, A History of Greek Religion, 2d ed. (New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1964), p. 205.
38 Kennedy, St. Paul and the Mystery Religions, p. 160.
39 Robert H. Gundry, "'Ecstatic Utterance' (N.E.B.)?" Journal of Theological Studies 17 (October 1966): 299?307.
40 Charles R. Smith, Tongues in Biblical Perspective (Winona Lake, IN: BMH Books, 1973), p. 26.
41 Gundry, "Ecstatic Utterance (N.E.B.)?" p. 305 (italics added).
42 Cited from D. W. B. Robinson, "Charismata versus Pneumatika: Paul's Method of Discussion," Reformed Theological Review 21 (May?August 1972): 49?50.
43 Hay, What Is Wrong in the Church? p. 43.

peacefulpete

The article above abbreviated was written by a Xtian theologian.

The questions are how to interpret Paul's handling of the congregation's practices. In passages it appears he is discouraging in others condoning even promoting. IMO the book has received much redaction but it seems to me that Paul was advocating the practice of tongues but concerned it too closely resembled the rival cults. IOW he was indecisive.

El blanko

Yet again the article is another example of an author trying to rationalize and ultimately debunk the Christian faith and practises within the 1st century by attempting to define parallels between pagan & Christian practise.

When Pharoahs priests came up against Jah they were able to perform "miracles" by "duplication" to a "degree". There is a possibility that demons through pagan custom and ritual were already performing signs to deceive the nations at that time and also throughout mankinds history.

The use of tongues within Pagan ritual is not remarkable, neither is the need for translation. It could simply be the methodology required for direct communication between a spirit source through to man at that time period. Whether that source be dark or light. No difference to my mind.

To communicate from the spirit world requires some kind of grounding vessel, a willing medium. It happens today, it happened then, so what?

We know the source.

Leolaia

That was Justin Martyr's view.

Narkissos

Very interesting. Actually the plausible historical material in the Gospels is just enough for one character, not two. I was thinking of John's insisting denegations in GJohn (He was not the light, I am not the Christ), as characteristic of the rivalry between separated schools of disciples which ultimately come from the same source. Reading the thread I was wondering how the name "Jesus" could be explained in this perspective, but later I read Price and saw he makes a good case of it as a glorification title based on Philippians 2. One could bring Matthew 1:21ff into the picture, where "Jesus" is a meaningful title just as "Immanuel".

I especially like Price's tongue-in-cheek conclusion: nobody can be sure it is true, but it is just as plausible as any theory...

Euphemism

Euph..the Gospels were written after Paul's authentic letters. They therefore never served as a background for the charismata of the Pauline congegations.

I understand that... I was replying to the following statement in your original post:

i Cor 1:22 seems to have Paul renouncing the Jews for wanting to see a miraculous sign. This implies that the Pauline Jesus was not a [m]iracle worker

Since my argument apparently wasn't very clear, I'll try and expand it a little.

According to 1 Cor 12:10, one of the xarismata (gifts) was engergHmata dunamewn (powerful works, or working of miracles).

And 1 Cor 14:22 calls tongues sHmeion (a sign). (Which, btw, is the same word as is used at 1:22.)

Now, to suggest--as you did--that Paul did not conceptualize Jesus as having performed sHmeia or engergHmata dunamewn, when he believed that contemporary Christians were peforming them, seems--with all due respect--rather a stretch to me.

Like I said, your UrMark idea is an interesting theory... I really don't have the knowledge to comment on it. I'm only commenting on your Pauline conjecture.

peacefulpete

Narkissos...There is a recent book about the Joshuah cults that existed just prior to Xtianity's rise. The possibilty exists that the name Jesus (Joshua hebrew) was simply he in vogue name for the messiah .
I'll try to find the book's title.

Euph..I believe I understand your logic. However doesn't 1 Cor 1 sound to you like he was suggesting the requiring of signs was a failure to understand the Pauline Xtian message? Why does he never refer to christ as a miracle worker? Why does he not correlate the charismata of Corinth with christs' miracles? The article I posted seems to explain adaquatly the source of the ecstatic wonders. I'm left wondering if Paul had initiated the practice. I believe that either they carried it from their past experience with the mystery cults and Paul wwas unsure how to address it. Or he initiated the practice as a part of the mystery cult practice for personal edification in imitation of the rival cults. Subsequently, he (or later redactor) recognized the excitement for the religion it was creating but at the same time felt uncomfortable with the unruliness.

Your right that 1:22 and parts of 12-14 are in tension. I know that parts of chapt 14 have been identified as interpolations, I have not researched the balance of these chapters to see the arguments for and against their authenticity. Speaking off the top of my head they may be late additions. Since the practice was popular with Gnostic Xtians it would seem possible that the full endorsement was inserted only to be moderated by a less enthusiastic editor.???? But ultimately these verses do not suggest that Paul understood his Jesus to be a miracle worker on earth. At most they say that worshipers of him would have evidence of sharing with him thru ecstacy and supernatural experience like the worhippers of Dionysus et al. Your point is good, I'll try to do more research, as I type this I seem to remember reading an article that bore on this very topic.

I'm not sure how you feel about the Corinth experiences or the modern pracice Eup. but to believe that Paul needed to restrain and discipline miracles that supposedly were done by God seems just plain silly.

Jesus gave no signs

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