144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  waton

  Waton said:

  There is the rub for wt, although they deny there was an Earthly Calling before 1914-18, WT theology implies, that, with perhaps 134 000 sealed/dead before 1914, the m/billions of previous partakers, if they did not commit the "sin against the holy spirit", must be resurrected on Earth.

  Morpheus said:
  

  False, they do not deny an earthly hope prior to 1918. They believe anyone faithful from abel until jesus death had an earthly hope.

  With due respect, Wt to my knowledge has never publicly addressed the issue what happens to the billions that took the bread and the wine, but forgot that they should have stopped at 144 000. The above paragraph was limited in scope to the wt delusion, "bible written only for partakers", covering the period of communion sharing, not the whole human history. Neanderthals and all.

  MBillions in paradise will be past partakers! If the wt hope, based on the talking snake has merit.
  
  
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  NU-LYTE

  waton - i did read about that , the nazis did in fact behead some , not sure they were claiming GC or LF, my point is that it appears to me that you have to preach until the satanic world kills you . Just my opinion based on reading the scriptures tho , jesus was very adamant that the world would hate true believers as much as they hated him , sending them as sheep among wolves , flat out telling them they would suffer and die over the kingdom , no mistaking that part . It would not surprise me if the final number just shows up prior to the tribulation and refuse the mark of the beast , looks like there is more than one tribulation period as well . The GC as we know don't die , the LF are part the first resurrection , the difference in my opinion is that I don't believe anyone is resurrected at this time , they have an instant resurrection going on . I do still believe that there may be something to this belief system tho it seems like it changes stuff around like the deck chairs on the titanic . This is the only religion I know of that actually acts out the last supper in the fashion of the first church even tho i think it's more like a church supper than just a sip of wine and nibble on some matza
  
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  waton

  This is the only religion I know of that actually acts out the last supper in the fashion of the first church .

  many interesting points you have, but the above one is wrong, because when Jesus passed the emblems, none of his disciples were anointed. Even he expressed himself as one with an Earthly hope, "sitting on tables, drinking wine himself in the kingdom, ruling Israel". So to follow Jesus, all should partake. who knows they might be anointed later. or worse, the anointed should not partake, because the only anointed at the last supper, Jesus, did not.

  The big problem, and you will come to that, perhaps, is, that it is all stories. There never was a talking snake,or donkeys, An Ark floating above Everest, Millions trekking in the desert for 40 years. Jonah eaten by a fish, the Earth standing still or even rotating backward, people walking on water, people coming out of the graves and invading Jerusalem.

  These are stories on the credibility level of Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad Wolf. badly written bible babbel.

  don't take it too seriously for too long.

  If there is a communion tradition, fine, let the anointed serve and the OS eat and drink.
  P.S. sorry you mentioned the Early Church, and I described the original last Supper, , already a difference had developed.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Just to complete the list in Acts

  (Acts 2:41) 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added.

  (Acts 2:47) 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to add to them daily those being saved.

  And Acts 4:4 says, “many of those who had listened to the speech believed, and the number of the men became about 5,000”.

  (Acts 5:14) 14 More than that, believers in the Lord kept on being added, great numbers both of men and of women.

  (Acts 6:7) 7 Consequently, the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

  Acts 9:42 This (healing) became known throughout all Jopʹpa, and many became believers in the Lord

  (Acts 11:21) Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number became believers and turned to the Lord.

  (Acts 11:24,26) 24 for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and faith. And a considerable crowd was added to the Lord. 26 So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians

  Acts 13:48 When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah,* and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.

  Acts 14:1 Now in I·coʹni·um they entered together into the synagogue of the Jews and spoke in such a manner that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks became believers.

  Acts 18:8-10 And many of the Corinthians who heard began to believe and be baptized.9 Moreover, the Lord said to Paul in a vision by night: “Do not be afraid, but keep on speaking and do not keep silent, 10 for I am with you+ and no man will assault you to harm you; for I have many people in this city.”
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  _Morpheus

  With due respect, Wt to my knowledge has never publicly addressed the issue what happens to the billions that took the bread and the wine, but forgot that they should have stopped at 144 000.

  Like wise, with respect, they have addressed it every day since their inception. I have no idea what “billions” of partakers you could mean. The sum total of all witness to ever live isnt a billion let alone the comparative few have partaken. The org teaches nobody outside is saved so you cant mean all other nominal christians who partake.

  All that said, my remarks stand regarding the earthly hope as taugh by jw’s. The numbers dont add up from any perspective, no matter how you slice it, on the heavenly hope.
  
  
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  NU-LYTE

  waton - true the holy spirit shows up at Pentecost but jesus was showing them how to remember him in his covenant , he told them to expect it , first one was a dry run , they had to keep doing it until they were martyred to qualify , it replaced the Passover . If you don't believe fine by me but we are discussing the belief , you atheists enter these threads and don't even want to discuss it usually ... no point in continuing
  
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  waton

  Like wise, with respect, they have addressed it every day since their inception. I have no idea what “billions” of partakers you could mean. The sum total of all witness to ever live isnt a billion let alone the comparative few have partaken. The org teaches nobody outside is saved so you cant mean all other nominal christians who partake.

  of course wt does not want to acknowledge that the billions of "Christians", (currently 2.3 billions) even exist, spiritually speaking. To wt there were only 80 partakers anointed per year since 033 AD. whereas in reality there were billions. According to that bizarre wt view point, these billions of drinkers of wine and eaters of wafers will be in paradise. I do believe that wt teaches that all pre 1914 church members will be resurrected, the unrighteous Jesus spoke about. Wt has not sunk that low, to teach that nobody except the 80 per year will be saved.imho.
  
  
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  waton

  how to remember him in his covenant , he told them to expect it , first one was a dry run , they had to keep doing it until they were martyred to qualify , it replaced the Passover . If you don't believe fine by me but we are discussing the belief , you atheists enter these threads and don't even want to discuss it usually ... no point in continuing

  Nu-Lyte: that is clever and funny, the last supper was a dry-run. may be like the SDAs that use grape juice? seriously, I am not an Atheist, but a Deist, willing to discuss any aspect of the bible stories , objectively.

  Talking of the 144k and covenants. The cup was the NEW COVENANT, wt makes a quick sleigh of hand to make it the KINGDOM COVENANT.

  All should be in the New covenant (forgiving Adams sins), and partake, John 6.

  then, you can sacrifice everlasting life on Earth to gain the upward calling. Jesus sacrifices, as the second Adam, his right to everlasting life too remember?
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  MrRoboto

  Actually the 144,000 is numerological significant: 1 + 4 + 4 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 9

  The square root of 9 is 3

  So the real number of heavenly dwellers is actually 3.

  1. Father

  2. Son

  3. Holy Spirit

  You see, this proves that a) the trinity is true and b) we're all screwed and never had a chance!
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  waton

  i did read about that , the nazis did in fact behead some , not sure they were claiming GC or LF, my point is that it appears to me that you have to preach-- Jesus.

  Nu-lyte: 1650+ Jws died in the camps, persecution, some more perhaps because they refused war work on the front. true martyrs. but by comparison, the German army executed 20 000+ of their own for refusing combat, desertion.