French MP's ban all overt religious symbols from the classroom

by yxl1 57 Replies latest jw friends

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  Sirona

  Simon

  They aren't as such. None of these symbols are ... and yet they all end up causing SO much trouble don't they?

  No. The symbols do not cause trouble, its beliefs and acting upon beliefs that cause trouble. There are some effects of clothing upon behaviour (such as those done with uniforms, etc) but this isn't about uniforms - we'd have to ban all types of group clothing rules if we were to blame the clothing for the behaviour all the time.

  I say do away with the overt displays of religious faith ... people can have their faith and do what they want in private but they have to make a SHOW of it and that's when the problems start.

  Again, I think you are totally wrong. The only time that showing faith is a problem is when the faith is based on an idea which harms others. E.g. having faith that everyone except those in your faith are second class. Faith in itself and showing faith isn't the problem, it is harmful beliefs which are the problem.

  Kids will do better without the differences being promoted IMO.

  Listen. Making everyone look the same isn't the answer. This will promote intolerance, not solve it. If everyone looks the same in France in terms of clothing etc. in schools, as soon as those children go out into the world and visit india or whereever they will have NO tolerance because they've been taught in their french school that religious clothing or symbols are somehow "wrong".

  How about the beautiful diversity we see in the world? Its called culture! The clothes worn the world over are often closely linked to the beliefs of that country.

  Simon, would you have us all be clones?

  Sirona
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  Sirona

  and another thing

  People can practice religion at home but when they go to school they should not try to impose their views and standards on others or make public displays of it IMO.

  I agree that we should never impose our standards and views on others in a religious sense. However, that does not mean that all religious people impose their views on others. They can wear the traditional clothing or symbol (e.g. cross on a chain whatever) without actually expecting others to do the same.

  Its almost like you are saying that we should wipe out all religion because it has caused trouble. That isn't the solution and it isn't fair for those of us who are religious but who are also religiously tolerant (you can be atheist whatever, but I have a right to my beliefs) and I have every right to wear my pentagram necklace whereever I go. I am not forcing my beliefs on others but if I want to wear a religious symbol I will.

  This rule will affect the workplace soon enough and will turn the french into a bunch of clone like non-individuals (at least in appearances)

  Sirona
• 

  Yerusalyim

  It is a damn good thing IMO. France is definitely taking the lead in dealing with religious bigotry and dangerous cults.

  So, wearing the hijab, a yarmulka, or a cross makes one a religious bigot and the member of a dangerous cult? WOW! Simon, you're reminding me of why the 1st amendment was added to the US constitution. Simon, even the french admit this is aimed mostly at the muslims...they threw in the others for good measure. It's not religion, but hatred that causes the problems, and one can hate and be an athiest.

  Religion involves the whole being in many cases, if not most cases. This includes dress, manners, etc.

  France isn't having a problem with assimilation perse, it's issue is it's growing radical muslim population...this law will fuel that radicalism...and drive more muslims from public schools into the private muslim schools, some of which are hate farms....yep...France is in for some more terrorism on it's own soil here in the next few years.
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  Xena

  I tend to agree with Sirona. When you ban these things you teach intolerance for others religions and cultures. I have no problem with someone displaying an outward symbol of their devotion, be it a cross or a headcovering, as long as they do not try to impose these things on me or mine.

  Diversity is what keeps things interesting.
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  Joker10

  What about Christmas drawings and holiday parties at school?
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  BluesBrother

  People can practice religion at home but when they go to school they should not try to impose their views and standards on others

  But is it not the French Government and their supporters who are imposing their will on reigious communities?

  "We" deposed the Taliban who imposed the veil on to the female but I beleive that is just as bad to ban it altogether. Live and let live is the expected attitude. I do not feel that a Muslim is imposing their veiw on me, I have never had one try to convince me of their faith , just wearing a scarf does not threaten me.

  If symbols divide, Catholic and Protestant schools in Northern Ireland both use the cross but have been deeply divided

  I thought the French had a revolution for Liberty, Fraternity ,Equality ???
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  Atilla

  I really like this law, the French are taking the lead in doing away with religious stupidity. We need some laws like this in our country but religion is too protected and religions use the umbrella of religioun to get away with far too many things. I think the most important thing about this law is protecting the rights of the girls who have to wear these silly head coverings. While some girls may like wearing the head coverings, I'm sure a lot of girls have to wear the head covers because of parental influence. So, if for 8 hours a day they can go without the head coverings, I say great. This will give these muslim girls a taste of freedom they otherwise would never have. Then, one day maybe they can grow up to be free of religion. I wish there was a law saying that I had to get involved in school sports or plays- that I couldn't just socially withdrawal because I was told all the "worldly" people at my school were bad for me.
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  bebu

  Simon, in what sense are the yarmulka and turban connected to "religious bigotry and dangerous cults"?

  They aren't as such. None of these symbols are ... and yet they all end up causing SO much trouble don't they?

  What trouble???? I had not heard of any trouble before. Headscarves and yarmulkes cause trouble?? Cross necklaces cause trouble?? I do not have any problem with that. I see people in public wearing turbans and crosses and yarmulkes; they do not intimidate me there; is that the next place to ban them?

  Most of these people differ fundamentally from secularists in that they don't believe that their lives are divided into compartments, and that you leave religion in certain compartments and keep it out of others. That is a core mistake being made here. To insist that such people do this is for many of them tantamount to giving an ultimatum to deny their religion entirely. Such people who insist on conforming are more intolerant than the ones that they accuse.

  Which shows that the problem actually resides in the viewer, not the wearer. If I'm intimidated by someone's cultural garments, I'm the one with a problem. "I'm fixing you so that I feel better." (As long as their are no direct or indirect threats associated with the clothing.)

  This is how bigotry begins: fear. And unwittingly it is promoted thru rules like these, because Yeru is right: the religious folks who send their kids to school in scarves will pull them out and send them to private religious schools. And that will isolate them further, and make it harder for them to learn how to be considerate to others who are different.

  It is clearly secularists who are forcing themselves on everyone and causing trouble, not students who are accustomed to wearing head scarves. A tempest in a teapot which is bound to cause more trouble than it ever could prevent. An amazing mistake in judgment.

  bebu
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  Simon

  What I'm saying is, it's the religious ghetto-isation (I may have made that word up) that causes problems and these overt displays of religious belief are part of the problem.

  Want another example of it? The idiots in Northern Ireland who insist on marching up and down the street opposite each other wearing orange and green and waving flags.

  It isn't the colors or the clothing per se that's the problem but the insistance that its "in your face". It's designed to keep religious intollerance alive and kicking.

  Why not get rid of religion as an issue? There is a time and a place for it and school isn't it IMO. Kids can learn about religions and cultures but it isn't the place to be religious.
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  scotsman

  On these sort of threads, does anyone ever have their opinion changed?

  I've had a a glass of wine, I must be drunk!